jfelbab

In many cases, such as spills, this is exactly what you can do. Quickly wipe up the spill and go on with life. Leave it sit and you may have stained the urethane topcoat. Like a pasta stain on your kitchen mat. Some stains work faster and some slower so time in contact is a significant factor. Remove the spill or stain as soon as you can to assure it does not become permanent.

I think you are jumping to conclusions and they are wrong. It is a matter of TIME as I implied above. Many impervious materials can be stained given the nature of the staining agent and length of dwell time. Staining from jeans doesn’t happen in minutes or even hours. It is repeated contact over days, weeks or months that cause the dye transfer to appear. And those jean stains are in the topcoat and not the leather underneath.

Consider the reasons that the leather is coated in the first place. Appearance, durability and improved stain resistance. Uncoated leather takes stains readily and cannot be wiped clean. But I never said dyes could not penetrate into the urethane over time. I do claim that it takes coated leather much longer to take on a stain than non-coated leather as the topcoat is significantly more resistant to penetration. That coating prevents liquid spills from readily getting to the leather surface, hence improving its ability to resist staining. In the same way, that coating prevents conditioners from penetrating the leather under the coating.

Read some of the links I provided below to see that this is not just my hypothesis. Also, leather conditioners will not prevent dye transfer on coated leather. Leather protectants will. Protected leather will not benefit from an oily or greasy conditioner, and will be worse for the use of it. Lest you think this is just my opinion I would suggest you contact other professionals in the leather industry to verify this. Don’t just use marketing hype for your info but talk to those who have been in this business for decades and listen to what they say.

Leather conditioners do not penetrate the urethane coating but sit on top of it. They will be rubbed off onto your clothing and that film that remains will collect and hold onto dust and grit which will increase abrasion when entering and leaving the car. When you are cleaning and treating protected leather your are cleaning and treating the coating, not the leather under it. The perforations are an even more significant reason NOT to use an oily or greasy conditioner. Consider that the leather has a color coat and a clear coat applied to it. The leather is painted. Allowing oil to saturate the leather beneath the coating can only reduce the bond that this coating has to the leather. The only thing protected leather requires is regular cleaning and proper hydration. In addition, the regular use of a water-based fluorocarbon protectant will minimize the chance of dye transfer ruining your leather.

If you believe leather conditioners are useful on protected leather, by all means continue to use them and lets’ compare the condition of our leather in 10-20 years. And yes, I have automotive leather older than 20 years.

Here are some links to verified reading material: (thanks TOGWT and judyb)
http://www.autopia.org/forum/topic/1...ther-articles/
http://www.autopia.org/forum/topic/1...es-hyperlinks/
http://www.autopia.org/forum/topic/1...shed-leather’/
http://www.autopia.org/forum/topic/1...b#entry1373368

MDames2

iTrader: (1)

This is true for unprotected leather. Not for protected leather. Contact Leatherique and ask them if their Rejuventor Oil penetrates protected leather interiors.

LeX2K

In theory maybe it is not possible for Leatherique to work on coated leather. But it does, and produces spectacular results. I just did an older Highlander and it cleaned the leather perfectly and made them much softer, and even took out most of the creases.

It seems like most often the people criticizing Leatherique are the ones that have never used it.

johnkol

I do not know if you realise this, but you are contradicting yourself.

On the one hand you write that staining is a matter of time even on protected leather:

and then you go on saying that leather conditioners will sit on top of the protected leather without ever penetrating:

You can't have it both ways.

You also did not answer my question on how your protected leather hypothesis works with perforated leather since any liquid can readily reach the unprotected leather through the perforations.

For the record, I have no allegiances here: I just picked up my first car with leather seats, so I am merely looking to understand how to treat them -- and your suggestions are simply contradicting the facts that people are reporting.

johnkol

Let's clear up some epistemological definitions here:

1. A "hypothesis" is a belief that someone espouses and has put forward as a candidate for explaining some observational and/or experimental data.

2. A "theory" is a hypothesis that has been firmly validated by data; a "theory" therefore is as close to a "fact" as science ever gets.

Technically speaking, what jfelbab has put forward does not even amount to a hypothesis (let alone a theory!) because he is not trying to explain data as reported by users, but he is simply stating his beliefs on how the world should work -- and his beliefs are clearly contradicted by data like yours.

jfelbab

Thank you johnkol.

No contradiction here, and If you had taken the time to read through the references I posted I think you would have come to that same conclusion.

When you put your favorite leather conditioner on your protected leather how long do you leave it there before wiping it off? Days? Didn't think so. Dye transfer stains from jeans take days, weeks or even months to penetrate into the topcoat.

Like I stated, if you think your leather conditioner will do a better job on your leather than the method I have suggested thats fine, lets compare results in a few years. My suggestions are not "my hypothesis" but are facts backed by professional leather organizations, not those just involved with marketing of a product.

I also have no allegiances in that I don't have any product to endorse or sell. I’m offering my knowledge and experience (50+ years) here in an effort to help those with questions. I don't care if you follow my advice or not.

Protected leather will take a stain, at least the topcoat will, if given enough time in contact with a staining agent. Protected leather, or more specifically the topcoat will be much less prone to taking a stain if treated with a water-based fluorocarbon protector. I suggest using one rather than an oily or greasy conditioner. I've restored stained protected leather and the actual hyde under the topcoat has never shown the stain once the topcoat was removed.

Protected leather, when perforated, can more readily take up moisture or stains surrounding the perforations but I tried to explain why it is not desirable to allow oily conditioners to seep through these perforations as this will loosen the bond the topcoat has to the leather hyde under it. Oily conditioners can be pushed through the perforations but it will not spread out evenly into the leather fibers and most of it will wind up in the foam seat padding, also shortening it's life. I have given you a good deal of reading material which I hope you forge through if you really want to understand what is going on with protected leather.

Final word. Use what you like, I don't care. I've done my best to explain what is happening with P leather and how best to care for it based on leather industry research data and professionals but if you disagree take it to these leather organizations and see if you get a different answer. I believe you will find that this is not my theory or hypothesis. It is what the leather industry has found as fact.

If you read nothing else read this link: http://www.autopia.org/forum/topic/1...-conditioning/

More organizations
www.leatherchemists.org
www.iultcs.org
www.ushsla.org

Bottom line... Don't like my posts... ignore them. Time to move on.

johnkol

I don't have a favourite leather conditioner. In fact, I don't have any leather conditioner at all. As I said, the Lexus I just bought is the first car I have had with leather upholstery, so I am looking for information on how to treat it.

It's not that I don't like your posts, it's the fact that they are frustrating: instead of using your 50+ years of expertise to explain things, you just keep on repeating your beliefs on how things should work, and not how things actually do work.

How do you explain Lexus2000 experience with Leatherique? Is he a paid troll? Are all people that report similar findings paid trolls? Have you tried the product and positively concluded that it does not work on protected leather?

You often recommend Leather Master products, and the company also makes a leather conditioner that they claim is appropriate for protected leather. Are they peddling snake oil? If they are, shouldn't we stay clear of all their products?

That's the kind of information that a lot of us would like to have.

LeX2K

Which "oily" conditioners are you talking about? Leatherique is certainly not oily at all once the process is done, in fact it leaves a nice satin like finish not to mention the leather smells fantastic. You know why Leatherique is the best? Because it removes stains (including from blue jeans) and dirt with almost no scrubbing or abrasion, and also makes the leather more supple.

I've used 5-6 different products, it is simply the best. I am certain that anyone using it will also come to the same conclusion. I have no allegiance to the company and was about as skeptical as everyone else when I first heard about it. A word on coated leather not being permeable to products like Leatherique. Maybe maybe not, but either way no other product is going to be able to penetrate the coating any better so the argument is moot. The criticism I suppose is that Leatherique can't work well because it is not able to penetrate the coating, but honestly who cares about the details? It does a brilliant job so however it works is not important.

g1kon1whee

iTrader: (4)

i would not recommend Leatherique to anyone that has perforated leather. i did quite a bit of research prior to purchasing the Leatherique system. it does seem to soften up the leather BUT i had a few issues:

First was on my back seat the day after i noticed there was a shiny spot on the perforated section where your legs would rest. So i gently cleaned it with the Pristine Clean and to my surprise the color started to come off ( almost looked like a rubber coating ). This area ended up being the size of a small football. So I called Leatherique and sent photos and was basically told that it was my seat or there was something on my seat that had a bad reaction and that it was not their product. In all reality I did buy my car used so this is always a possibility but there was nothing visible on the seats before I just wanted to clean and condition them since I wasn't sure if they had ever been done before.
My remedy for this problem was I found an awesome leather repair person and she redyed that section of the seat. It looks brand new now. thank god.

Second was after 2-3 weeks I started to notice dark spots in random spots in the perforated areas. It almost looks like the Rejuvinating Oil is soaking into the back side causing it to get darker. Its kind of hard to describe. Didn't even bother contacting Leatherique because of my previous experience.
I haven't done anything with this but I will probably try to pull the leather cover off and gently clean it from the back side and see if there is some excess Rejuvinating Oil on the foam pad causing this.

This was all preformed on the 2004 UL LS430 crystal white with saddle interior.

Once again this is just my experience with the Leatherique product. It is ironic but the lady that I had do my seat repair does all the leather/ interior repairs for my local Lexus dealers ( and other dealers ) and she had never even heard of Leatherique. She recommended that I use Jergens mild soap and water with a soft brush. Hope this helps the original poster. Thanks

LeX2K

No offense but your story sounds extremely suspect. Post the pictures you took.

g1kon1whee

iTrader: (4)

Wow. Offense taken. Thanks for calling me a liar, I appreciate that. Here's a picture of the my first problem as it is the only one on my phone. I hope this helps the original poster and others undecided about leather cleaners/conditioners. Thanks

g1kon1whee

iTrader: (4)

Here's another.

PondScum

I've done a lot of reading on the subject of maintaining/restoring coated leather, and there is so much conflicting information out there that I'm no closer to knowing what is correct and what isn't.

When it comes to Leatherique, it seems there are just as many claims (with pictures) of "Leatherique gives stunning results!" as "Leatherique ruined my leather!". It doesn't help that the mfgr seems unhelpful when people do encounter problems using their products. I've never used it, but I did recently purchase some to try to restore an old leather sofa. I do view the rejuvenation oil as a product only for use in restoring badly neglected leather, not for regular use.

Seems like the best advice is to keep your leather clean and protected so that you never have to find out whether any of these restoration products work or not.

LeX2K

You took my post the wrong way, or I worded it badly my apologies. I meant to say the damage itself is suspect (especially after seeing the pics) it does look like there was a previous spill there or something else was on/under the leather. Leatherique does not contain anything damaging or harsh AFAIK, but then again I'm no expert on the products ingredients.

I did read on another forum where a guy had re-dyed his leather and the Leatherique treatment ruined them, but that to me was due to poor application of the dye or cheap dye. I've used Leatherique on a leather sofa for a friend and it turned out incredible, I mean beyond amazing. But like any product it is not infallible and I'm sure not compatible with some types of finishes.

, although not that many. Either way I won't use anything else, if people use other products and are happy with them, great.

Rogarven

Thanks for this thread. I had used Lexol Cleaner and Conditioner on my Accord, so decided to use Leather Masters on my new Lexus after reading in another thread people complaining about Leatherique. Now I am more confused. I think I will try to keep up my leather and use the LM protector to help try to avoid damage.