Torture

[GKLCPA]

Of all the things that the current adminstration has done, torture is the absolute worst. As I read this story, the question in my mind is why? What does driving someone crazy have to do with extracting information?

This torture business is all about cruel experiments akin to the sort of thing the Nazi's did during WWII. Excerpts from the link are below:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070312/klein

....Something remarkable is going on in a Miami courtroom. The cruel methods US interrogators have used since September 11 to "break" prisoners are finally being put on trial.

This was not supposed to happen. The Bush Administration's plan was to put José Padilla on trial for allegedly being part of a network linked to international terrorists. But Padilla's lawyers are arguing that he is not fit to stand trial because he has been driven insane by the government.

Arrested in May 2002 at Chicago's O'Hare airport, Padilla, a Brooklyn-born former gang member, was classified as an "enemy combatant" and taken to a Navy prison in Charleston, South Carolina. He was kept in a 9-by-7-foot cell with no natural light, no clock and no calendar. Whenever Padilla left the cell, he was shackled and suited in heavy goggles and headphones. Padilla was kept under these conditions for 1,307 days. He was forbidden contact with anyone but his interrogators, who punctured the extreme sensory deprivation with sensory overload, blasting him with harsh lights and pounding sounds. Padilla also says he was injected with a "truth serum," a substance his lawyers believe was LSD or PCP.

According to his lawyers and two mental health specialists who examined him, Padilla has been so shattered that he lacks the ability to assist in his own defense. He is convinced that his lawyers are "part of a continuing interrogation program" and sees his captors as protectors. In order to prove that "the extended torture visited upon Mr. Padilla has left him damaged," his lawyers want to tell the court what happened during those years in the Navy brig. The prosecution strenuously objects, maintaining that "Padilla is competent," that his treatment is irrelevant.

US District Judge Marcia Cooke disagrees. "It's not like Mr. Padilla was living in a box. He was at a place. Things happened to him at that place." The judge has ordered several prison employees to testify at the hearings on Padilla's mental state, which begin February 22. They will be asked how a man alleged to have engaged in elaborate antigovernment plots now acts, in the words of brig staff, "like a piece of furniture."

It's difficult to overstate the significance of these hearings. The techniques used to break Padilla have been standard operating procedure at Guantánamo Bay since the first prisoners arrived five years ago. They wore blackout goggles and sound-blocking headphones and were placed in extended isolation, interrupted by strobe lights and heavy metal music. These same practices have been documented in dozens of cases of CIA "extraordinary rendition" as well as in prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan.....

[bluestar]

Geez ! I am shocked NOT...

This Bush administration has done untold damage to the fabric of our nation in the course of fighting a "war on terror"... When the books are opened on this administration (and it will, not a matter of if.. but when), we will all be SHOCKED to our core, in what is being done, supposedly in our name.

How could this Padilla incident be any different ? Abu Ghraib is still fresh in our memories... Gitmo is still standing, and even expanding (for whom and what purposes, only the Bush govt knows), the wanton disregard for the poor in New Orleans, on roof tops, in dirty water, trapped in their own homes, unable to escape while the govt looked past them... some still unable to rebuild or return till today...

Shocked about the Bush govt ? Unless you just dropped in here from another planet would anything this govt does shock you.

But hey, they are doing fantastic... Terror is down worldwide, strife is now a distant memory, Iraq and its neighbors are living in Utopia, America flows with milk and honey, and the world is not just safer today, its like we are back to the Golden Age of this planet....

Props to the Bush regime/junta

[mmarshall]

The Bush Administration just won a case, in Federal Appeals Court, involving Guantanamo prisoners. These prisoners are not considered normal or routine POW's, nor are they covered by the Geneva Convention, nor are they considered American citizens for counter-terrorism and interrogation purposes.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/the-debate-forum/266750-bush-wins-in-federal-appeals-court-on-guantanamo-detainees.html

In backing up a lower Federal Court ruling on the issue, the Federal Appeals Court ruled, 2-1, that the Guantanamo detainees did NOT have a legal right to challenge their internment or conditions there.

This case may eventually end up in the Supreme Court....but I wouldn't bet the rent on the Appeals Court verdict being overturned.

[GKLCPA]

Originally Posted by mmarshall

The Bush Administration just won a case, in Federal Appeals Court, involving Guantanamo prisoners. These prisoners are not considered normal or routine POW's, nor are they covered by the Geneva Convention, nor are they considered American citizens for counter-terrorism and interrogation purposes.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266750

In backing up a lower Federal Court ruling on the issue, the Federal Appeals Court ruled, 2-1, that the Guantanamo detainees did NOT have a legal right to challenge their internment or conditions there.

This case may eventually end up in the Supreme Court....but I wouldn't bet the rent on the Appeals Court verdict being overturned.

Behind questions of legality, there's always the moral question. The moral question is whether we should be torturing people to begin with? Much of this torture strikes me as little more than cruel experiments designed to cause maximum permanent psychological damage. This is very Nazi like and as Blue says, one day the books will be open to the world on this. Why is it that the pictures taken of prisoners at Abu Ghraib were never made public? What is it that is being hidden from public view?

The moral question is the key. Bush claims to be a saved Christian as do many of the people who follow him. When Abu Ghraib became public, several Presbyterians actually broadcast apologies into various Arab nations. Fundamentalist Christians supported and continue to support torture and have absolutely no problem with telling everyone that they're doing God's work and that Bush is a man of God. It's the reverse that's true and many of these so called Christians who lack a conscience are of the house of Satan. How do I know? Here's what Jesus said:


Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

Matthew 7:15-20

I'm no theologian, but the above makes a lot of sense. I say judge em by the fruit. The entire Bush adminstration and the fundamentalist "Christians" that support him have borne nothing but a bunch of rotten, stinking bad fruit. God help us.

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by GKLCPA

Behind questions of legality, there's always the moral question. The moral question is whether we should be torturing people to begin with? Much of this torture strikes me as little more than cruel experiments designed to cause maximum permanent psychological damage.

So-called "Torture" of prisoners is defined not by Scripture but by the Geneva Convention....which also defines what is a "Prisoner", POW, or terror suspect to start with. While American courts have not been totally, 100% supportive of all of the Administration's actions in Guantanamo, Abu Grabi, and similiar prisons; for the most part, they have not interfered with the Adminitration, holding ( correctly ) that it is not a judicial matter. This is a war against terrorism, and, it is not the job of judges or the judicial branch of Government to fight wars.

Here's what Jesus said:


Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

Matthew 7:15-20

Here's what Jesus ALSO said.......in the VERY SAME Sermon on the Mount:

"Settle with your enemies while there is still time. Otherwise they will hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to the police, and you will be THROWN IN JAIL. There, I ASSURE YOU, you will STAY until you have paid the LAST PENNY of your penalty."
(Matthew 5, 25-26 )

Or.....how about the letter of St. Paul to the Romans ( Romans 13, 3-4 ):

"Rulers are not to be feared by those who do good, but evildoers. If you do evil, the power of the government to punish is real. So if you want to avoid punishment, do what is good and not evil " .

Something these "prisoners" should have read....and thought about.....before they decided to take up arms against the U.S. They engaged in, or supported, terrorism.....and are paying the price.

I, my friend, am not doubting your knowledge of Scripture, but believe me, I know it as well. I have been reading it since grade school...a LONG time ago.

[bluestar]

Originally Posted by mmarshall

The Bush Administration just won a case, in Federal Appeals Court, involving Guantanamo prisoners. These prisoners are not considered normal or routine POW's, nor are they covered by the Geneva Convention, nor are they considered American citizens for counter-terrorism and interrogation purposes.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266750

In backing up a lower Federal Court ruling on the issue, the Federal Appeals Court ruled, 2-1, that the Guantanamo detainees did NOT have a legal right to challenge their internment or conditions there.

This case may eventually end up in the Supreme Court....but I wouldn't bet the rent on the Appeals Court verdict being overturned.

mmarshall... this "victory" was based solely on the MCA of 2006 which removed habeaus corpus for anyone the President solely deemed an enemy combatant. Can you find a dictionary that defined the term "enemy combatant" ? I am waiting to read it ....

This case will probably end up at the Supreme Court. According to the dissenting Judge Rogers: "... the Supreme Court has already rejected the argument that detainees do not have habeas rights because Guantanamo is located outside the United States .... the Constitution limits the circumstances under which Congress can suspend habeas to "cases of Rebellion or invasion," which is hardly the situation today."

Sen Dodd has already introduced a bill to reverse portions of the MCA of 2006 dealing specifically with habeas corpus. It is a bad law, fraught with danger for our democracy. Let us hope that we correct the parts of that bill that restores human dignity to others, while we maintain our leadership of treating others more humanely than they would treat us. That's the price of leadership we have to pay.

[bluestar]

Originally Posted by mmarshall

So-called "Torture" of prisoners is defined not by Scripture but by the Geneva Convention....which also defines what is a "Prisoner", POW, or terror suspect to start with. While American courts have not been totally, 100% supportive of all of the Administration's actions in Guantanamo, Abu Grabi, and similiar prisons; for the most part, they have not interfered with the Adminitration, holding ( correctly ) that it is not a judicial matter. This is a war against terrorism, and, it is not the job of judges or the judicial branch of Government to fight wars.

The definition of "Torture" in the Geneva Conventions is very clear. We are signatories to that Charter.

Originally Posted by mmarshall

Here's what Jesus ALSO said.......in the VERY SAME Sermon on the Mount:

"Settle with your enemies while there is still time. Otherwise they will hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to the police, and you will be THROWN IN JAIL. There, I ASSURE YOU, you will STAY until you have paid the LAST PENNY of your penalty."
(Matthew 5, 25-26 )

I haven't checked the quote in the Bible yet, but I cannot imagine Jesus saying the word "Police" as the above quote ascribes to him... We are talking BC here, so when exactly did the concept of "Police" begin in Israel ?

Originally Posted by mmarshall

Or.....how about the letter of St. Paul to the Romans ( Romans 13, 3-4 ):

"Rulers are not to be feared by those who do good, but evildoers. If you do evil, the power of the government to punish is real. So if you want to avoid punishment, do what is good and not evil " .

Something these "prisoners" should have read....and thought about.....before they decided to take up arms against the U.S. They engaged in, or supported, terrorism.....and are paying the price.

We need to be sure everyone we detain is truly an enemy. There had been reports of people being "sold" to Afghans, then to Pakistanis, then to the US for $$$$... There are reports of many "detainees" that had been freed for lack of evidence after many years of incarceration.... Without the right to challenge their detention, how would anyone know who truly belongs in jail ? Not covering for anyone, just wanting us to lead the world in human right protection, as we have always led the world...

[cpone]

Torture no one, its soooo wrong.
So what they want to chop your head off.
So WHAT they want to kill you your family your mom dad or if they took you prisoner they would simply parade you in front of a camera and THEN chop your head off.
SO WHAT they do not value life and may have information on the enemy that may prevent you getting killed. screw it. We should not torture them.

He was kept in a 9-by-7-foot cell with no natural light, no clock and no calendar. Whenever Padilla left the cell, he was shackled and suited in heavy goggles and headphones. Padilla was kept under these conditions for 1,307 days. He was forbidden contact with anyone but his interrogators

You guys DO KNOW that this is even NORMAL in US federal Prisons for lifers and what is known as level 4 prisoners the WORST of the WORST. You do know that right? Its called ISOLATION!

who punctured the extreme sensory deprivation with sensory overload, blasting him with harsh lights and pounding sounds.

I'll take that over decapitation any time.

Maybe the federal gov't should have just killed the bastard and saved us all this talk about "torture".

But yeah lets just give every detainee the same exact federal prison rights as other criminals in the US. Heck we should even broadcast them on TV like an Ana Nicole Trial and let ALL our enemies know what information we have gathered from these detainees.