Response to Tim Hardaway's Remarks (Gay NBA Players)

[videcormeum]

It looks to me as though Hardaway thought he was in the company of supportive bigots when he made these comments. And for those of you who think this story is getting too much play - remove the word "gay" from his comment "I hate gay people" and insert some other arbitrary human characteristic.

And I don't think there's any questioning the intent or sincerity of his comments.

However, I don't think it's constructive to outright ostracize him - or anyone who has a tendency towards bigotry.

My opinion.

Here's a SI article in case you haven't heard of the story:Sports Illustrated Article

M.

[LXMN]

My take on this is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Whether they make it publicly known or keep it to themselves is a risk. You must be willing to deal with the consequences of your actions. But freedom of speech is what makes this a great country. Good or bad. "You must defend what is wrong in order to preserve what is right" (Bill Maher). I do not condone hating another based on their sexual orientation or for the color of their skin, for that matter,but to each his own. I do not believe that Hardaway should be persecuted for his interview, but I think the league has other ideas.

[KevinGS]

I think Hardaway's words were extreme, but at least he was honest. I'll give him that. For the record, I don't really agree with his "hatred for gays", but it's understandable given that our society is highly religious.

But he made one really good point...he said he would not want a homosexual in the locker room with him.

And I respect that...because I would respect women cheerleaders saying that they wouldn't want to shower with me after a game. Isn't it, in effect, the same thing?

I mean, if you're a homosexual, and you LIKE men...how are you gonna be around several athletically-built naked men and NOT get a rise? Is it not the same as a heterosexual man showering with 20 naked cheerleaders? I mean, you may not be attracted to them ALL, but there's sure to be AT LEAST a few that turn you on, right?

Now knowing this, if the women say that they are not comfortable being around me in the shower, how would we NOT understand that? Actually, we do understand. That's why hetero men don't shower with women.

This is part of the reason why I hesitate to argue for gays in the military as well. Same issue.

So in reality, I don't want to shower with homosexual men either...and their overall presence in the locker room where we dress, change and such would give me pause as well....just as women don't want to shower and change clothes around hetero men...for the SAME REASON.

And no, I am not worried about a homosexual running over and making a pass at me or anything, 'cause that's not the issue. Just like if a hetero man promises that he wouldn't make a pass at any of the cheerleaders in the shower, that still doesn't suggest that that statement will make the women feel comfortable enough to shower and change around me, right?

Does this make me a homophobe? Maybe it does.

[rominl]

i think it's just dumb of him to say anything like that. that's my opinion

[varcity64]

first of all, im glad someone else posted this before i did. and even though i may get flamed for this, im am SOOOOOOO GLAD Hardaway came out and said something. im SICK AND TIRED of people not being able to say what they want b/c its a "sensative" issue... F#$% THAT. he is 100% correct and it is not right that a homo is allowed to change in the same room as hetero men. like the poster above said... its like have guys and girls in 1 changing room or shower.im sorry, but that just does not fly with me. and let it be known, i do hate gays as sorry as that may be. to me, i want nothin to do with them. i have been hit on by gay guys, so i have a reason to feel the way i do. now, with that said, i will not judge a person that i have known and found out AFTER the fact he was gay, i just wouldnt be around them as much.

[varcity64]

Originally Posted by rominl

i think it's just dumb of him to say anything like that. that's my opinion

henry, im all for free speech and everyone is entitled to their opinions... but why is it dumb? if this is how he (and MANY others feel), why shouldnt it be said? im not attacking you, i just want to understand why its dumb? i thought it was actually brave of him to say since he KNEW he would catch a lot of heat for it...

[LXMN]

Originally Posted by varcity64

henry, im all for free speech and everyone is entitled to their opinions... but why is it dumb? if this is how he (and MANY others feel), why shouldnt it be said? im not attacking you, i just want to understand why its dumb? i thought it was actually brave of him to say since he KNEW he would catch a lot of heat for it...

I think he is saying it is dumb for that reason alone. If he knew he would catch heat for what he said and said it anyway, that is known as being a dumbass.


His agent (I'm speculating) made him apologize later on for what was said.

But I do not want to speak for others, so I will let romini choose to explain if he pleases too.

[videcormeum]

LXMN - I totally agree - people are free, as they should be, to say whatever they like. And I agree that the NBA obviously has a different POV than does Hardaway. What I fail to understand is how and why some people develop such a strong aversion to ideas or actions that do not affect them (negatively) at all - like homosexuality or interracial marriage for a throwback hot-button issue.

KevinGS - As for the locker room issue - personally, I've never been comfortable showering with/around other PEOPLE regardless of their sex/gender/andthelistgoeson - I'd just rather not - drywall and tile aren't expensive enough for me to see the savings - build some partitions people. But that aside, the relationships which people have with one another take many forms - professional, friendship, romantic, etc - and I refuse to believe that just because a man is homosexual he will be unable to control himself from wishing for or pursuing a romantic relationship with his teammates - with whom he should, fairly obviously, have a professional relationship. A homosexual man who does not respect his teammates' wishes to not be approached about a romantic relationship or involved romantically is disrespectful and rude. Just like a heterosexual man would be disrespectful and rude if he were not to respect the wishes of a female co-worker. There are disrespectful and rude people of both sexual orientations - but that has nothing to do with sexual orientation at all. Last - why be so on edge about this to begin with? If a homosexual man who did not know me well approached me and kindly and respectfully asked if I was interested - I'd treat the situation as I'd treat a similar situation if it were a woman I was not particularly interested in. I'd respectfully respond that I was not.

So that leads me to my conclusion -
Even the relatively clear and distinct delineation between male and female is a line that is more than occasionally blurred by nature or tragedy (hermaphroditism/severe electrical shock/etc). Similarly, whether by some biological impulse or conscious choice (a good deal of research suggests the former), occasionally the gender line is blurred. But when either line is blurred, people still retain their thoughts, feelings, and desires. They are still human and deserve to be treated as such. Not with sweeping, often inaccurate generalizations, or as outcasts or second class citizens.

M.

[varcity64]

1sicklex... i know you had a post in this thread... i certainly hope it wasnt removed b/c you are a mod or you removed it b/c ur a mod b/c that would be terrible. i was just going to agree with what you said and that you are 100% correct in the sense that it is a shame when a straight man cannot speak his mind and not get flamed for it

[videcormeum]

Originally Posted by varcity64

you are 100% correct in the sense that it is a shame when a straight man cannot speak his mind and not get flamed for it

It is not my intention to "flame" anyone here - I'm just sharing my thoughts as you have shared yours. We happen to disagree on a few things. But all that really means is that we represent two different sets of thoughts and experiences. And that's fine. I'm never in support of censorship of ideas - as censorship has proven to be a very slippery slope.

In the spirit of good discussion - carry on. All I ask is that we keep it a civil discussion.

M.

[1SICKLEX]

Originally Posted by varcity64

1sicklex... i know you had a post in this thread... i certainly hope it wasnt removed b/c you are a mod or you removed it b/c ur a mod b/c that would be terrible. i was just going to agree with what you said and that you are 100% correct in the sense that it is a shame when a straight man cannot speak his mind and not get flamed for it

Yeah I deleted it. Basically Tim didn't say he was going to hurt anyone. He said his FEELINGS which might be SCARY for us, even grown big ass men. I am sure many in sports SHARE his feelings but won't or will not say it b/c their career will get hurt.

Otherwise, wouldn't these gay men SAY they were gay ahead of time or during their career? No, they WAIT!

Then we cry FOUL at Tim for speaking his mind????

I think if you LIE about your sexual preference during your career, maybe YOU should be banned. You LIED to everyone. You LIED to your teammates. You are a FAKER.

I've played sports and I do agree, I was NEVER comfortable being in the locker room with a bunch of naked dudes (lol) and I never liked being slapped on the ass after I dunked or hit a home run. No, you give me a high five.

Tim blew any post coaching or broadcasting career. That is on him. Was it a dumb move from that standpoint. Hell yes it was.

Was it dumb to say how he feels if that is what he wants to say? Hell no.

I close with I cannot believe a straight man in America is being punished for those statements when that is how he feels.

No one THINKS of Tim Hardaway today. Is does not represent the NBA. Why the hell is he banned from All Star weekend?

If Magic or Mike or Larry said that, yes, it is a much bigger deal as they were NBA ambassadors.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by videcormeum

KevinGS - As for the locker room issue - personally, I've never been comfortable showering with/around other PEOPLE regardless of their sex/gender/andthelistgoeson - I'd just rather not - drywall and tile aren't expensive enough for me to see the savings - build some partitions people. But that aside, the relationships which people have with one another take many forms - professional, friendship, romantic, etc - and I refuse to believe that just because a man is homosexual he will be unable to control himself from wishing for or pursuing a romantic relationship with his teammates - with whom he should, fairly obviously, have a professional relationship. A homosexual man who does not respect his teammates' wishes to not be approached about a romantic relationship or involved romantically is disrespectful and rude. Just like a heterosexual man would be disrespectful and rude if he were not to respect the wishes of a female co-worker. There are disrespectful and rude people of both sexual orientations - but that has nothing to do with sexual orientation at all. Last - why be so on edge about this to begin with? If a homosexual man who did not know me well approached me and kindly and respectfully asked if I was interested - I'd treat the situation as I'd treat a similar situation if it were a woman I was not particularly interested in. I'd respectfully respond that I was not.

So that leads me to my conclusion -
Even the relatively clear and distinct delineation between male and female is a line that is more than occasionally blurred by nature or tragedy (hermaphroditism/severe electrical shock/etc). Similarly, whether by some biological impulse or conscious choice (a good deal of research suggests the former), occasionally the gender line is blurred. But when either line is blurred, people still retain their thoughts, feelings, and desires. They are still human and deserve to be treated as such. Not with sweeping, often inaccurate generalizations, or as outcasts or second class citizens.

M.

Vide, you missed my point though.

If a group of cheerleaders are about to shower, then dress in their locker room, and they want all heterosexual males gone before they do so...why can't a hetero male make the same request of homosexuals? Is it, in effect, not the same?

This isn't about worrying about a homosexual making a pass at another male...this is about one's comfort of showering with 'like sexed' men or women. Hec, many men and women want to shower ALONE period.

This may sound like discrimination, and maybe it is...but the point of the matter is that you are showering with someone who may look at you sexually, and you may not feel comfortable about that. We don't fault women for having these feelings?

Hec, I'll take it a step further....and I know I'm stretching here, but for conversation's sake (and because it's how I feel): If I'm playing basketball where there's a LOT of physical contact, it would be a little odd to be playing with a homosexual. And I don't even consider myself a homophobe (stop laughing). But seriously, I don't have anything against homosexuals, but I don't think I should have to endure constant close contact with someone who may be attracted to me sexually, unless I CHOOSE to.

For me, I think of it like this: would I want to play basketball or football (or any close contact sport) with ALL homosexuals? Let's say I'M the only hetero, and there's 9 homosexuals on the court, or 21 other homosexuals on the field...I don't think I'd want to be on that field with them...because one of those guys may get a rise from another guy (not attracted to ME, persay)...and I don't want to be on the field with a bunch of guys running around with possible erections.

I know that sounds funny, but I am not trying to be...I'm trying to be real here.

Sometimes in America, we're just too damn PC...which doesn't allow us to have honest conversations. Let's be honest, and let's be real...homosexuals, when it comes to SEXUALITY, or more like women, than men to hetero men.

Why wouldn't they be?

For the record, I'd have no problem playing tennis or bowling or golf with homosexuals, and we could high-five and even chest-thump after a strike, I wouldn't care. But close contact sports may be an issue, especially if there are multiple homosexuals...because they may be attracted to each other (which is fine), but that sexual attraction may result in a rise out of them that does not belong on the court or the field.

Lastly, my preference to play certain physical sports with only other hetero men should not be considered 'dehumanizing', because I do not hate gays or anything like that. There's LOTS of stuff we COULD do together. But like women, if they would like some privacy when they shower and dress...or if women would like to play basketball with other women so they won't have to be subject to an occasional male erection on the court (and let's face it, it's GONNA happen occasionally...simply because they're women and we're men...some things ARE damn near uncontrollable)...well, in any of these cases, we would not call these lady's choices dehumanizing to men. It should be the same when a hetero male makes the identical request of homosexual men.

Am I making sense?

[rominl]

Originally Posted by varcity64

henry, im all for free speech and everyone is entitled to their opinions... but why is it dumb? if this is how he (and MANY others feel), why shouldnt it be said? im not attacking you, i just want to understand why its dumb? i thought it was actually brave of him to say since he KNEW he would catch a lot of heat for it...

freedom of speech is good and important, but imho that doesn't mean you can just go and say jack crap anywhere you want. that's childish and immature actions. you still have to consider where you say it, how you say it, etc...

the way he did it in public, and the kind of words he used? that's just dumb. again that's my opinion.

once you move up the ladder in your life and know the consequences, responsibilities, and effect on other people, you will think twice about what you say and what you do -- freedom of speech or not

[drink300]

Who cares. He is entitled to his opinion.

If someone famous said they hated Conservative Christians, they'd get away with hardly the bat of an eye. I'm Sick of double standards.

[1SICKLEX]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Vide, you missed my point though.

If a group of cheerleaders are about to shower, then dress in their lockerroom, and they want all heterosexual males gone before they do so...why can't a hetero male make the same request of homosexuals? Is it, in effect, not the same?

This isn't about worrying about a homosexual making a pass at another male...this is about one's comfort of showering with 'like sexed' men or women. Hec, many men and women want to shower ALONE period.

This may sound like discrimination, and maybe it is...but the point of the matter is that you are showering with someone who may look at you sexually, and you may not feel comfortable about that. We don't fault women for having these feelings?

Hec, I'll take it a step further....and I know I'm stretching here, but for conversation's sake (and because it's how I feel): If I'm playing basketball where there's a LOT of physical contact, it would be a little odd to be playing with a homosexual. And I don't even consider myself a homophobe (ok, stop laughing). But seriously, I don't have anything against homosexuals, but I don't think I should have to endure constant close contact with someone who may be attracted to me sexually, unless I CHOOSE to.

For me, I think of it like this: would I want to play basketball or football (or any close contact sport) with ALL homosexuals? Let's say I'M the only hetero, and there's 9 homosexuals on the court, or 21 other homosexuals on the field...I don't think I'd want to be on that field with them...because one of those guys may get a rise from another guy (not ME, persay)...and I don't want to be on the field with a bunch of guys running around with possible erections.

I know that sounds funny, but I am not trying to be...I'm trying to be real here.

Sometimes in America, we're just too damn PC...which doesn't allow us to have honest conversations. Let's be honest, and let's be real...homosexuals, when it comes to SEXUALITY, or more like women, than men to hetero men.

Why wouldn't they be?

For the record, I'd have no problem playing tennis or bowling or golf with homosexuals, and we could high-five and even chest-thump after a strike, I wouldn't care. But close contact sports may be an issue, especially if there are multiple homosexuals...because they may be attracted to each other (which is fine), but that sexual attraction may result in a rise out of them that does not belong on the court or the field.

Lastly, my preference to play certain physical sports is not de-humanizing, because I do not hate gays or anything like that. There's LOTS of stuff we COULD do together. But like women, if they would like some privacy when they shower and dress...or if women would like to play basketball with other women so they won't have to be subject to an occasional male erection on the court (and let's face it, it's GONNA happen occasionally...simply because they're women and we're men...some things ARE damn near uncontrollable)...well, in any of these cases, we would not call these lady's choices de-humanizing to men.

Am I making sense?

Good points. Like how Karl Malone said he ain't want to play against Magic when he had HIV....The media blew it up but Karl had a right to say how he felt and the danger or contamination (while rare).