Does Israel have a right to exist?

[bitkahuna]

Syria, Hezbollah, Iran, and the Palaestinian areas obviously think not. I think they would be happy to have the state of Israel not exist, not be governed by Jewish people. Anyone disagree with that?

Then there's dozens of other countries which apparently think Israel does have a right to continue to exist, and defend itself, as a legally recognized nation.

Let's say Hezbollah or Hamas one day took over the Israeli government. Unthinkable? I don't think so. While Israel may have a formidable military, they demonstrated their incompetence in using it in this last battle, afraid of world opinion criticizing them for overreacting.

Anyway, if the Israel government fell to Hamas/Hezbollah or group that has no love for Israel's continued existence run by Jewish people, what then? I guess the Israeli border with Gaza and west bank would go away, the Palestinians would stream into Israel probably VERY violently with a civil war. (What the heck does "civil" war mean anyway? There's nothing civil or civilized about it!).

I hate to say it but we really do appear headed for a showdown of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam at some point. I just wonder what countries like Russia and China will do.

Anyway, back to the original question!

Does Israel have a right to exist?

[Och]

I beleive it does have a right to exist, but not on someone elses land like it does now.

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by Och

I beleive it does have a right to exist, but not on someone elses land like it does now.

YOU may believe it, but most of the Palestinians don't. The problem is that no matter WHERE the borders are, the Palestinians will NEVER be satisfied. The late Yasser Arafat proved that time and time again. They will always maintain.....as you say.......that Israel is on " their " land. The only " land " that the Palestinians recognize for Israel is the Mediterannean Sea.

[Jewcano]

The Jews are scapegoats in that region and will always remain....hell we are even scapegoats in this country too. If there is some problem, its the Jews fault, just ask Mel Gibson.
As for whether or not they have the right to live there, i say keep fighting.

[Och]

Originally Posted by mmarshall

YOU may believe it, but most of the Palestinians don't. The problem is that no matter WHERE the borders are, the Palestinians will NEVER be satisfied. The late Yasser Arafat proved that time and time again. They will always maintain.....as you say.......that Israel is on " their " land. The only " land " that the Palestinians recognize for Israel is the Mediterannean Sea.

Well, this is absolutely true, right now Israels entire territory is indeed Palestenian land.

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by Och

Well, this is absolutely true, right now Israels entire territory is indeed Palestenian land.

Not quite. The Golan Heights were formerly Syrian, not Palestinian. Syria lost them as a result of its aggression in the 1967 war.

It was also Jewish LONG before it was ever " Palestinian "...but of course that is another whole argument.

Like it of not, though, the Isarelis are there to stay, regardless of either your opinion or mine....what we discuss is not going to change things one bit. For the most part, the Israelis are going nowhere. The Palestinians are going to have to accept it.

[Och]

Originally Posted by mmarshall

Not quite. The Golan Heights were formerly Syrian, not Palestinian. Syria lost them as a result of its aggression in the 1967 war.

It was also Jewish LONG before it was ever " Palestinian "...but of course that is another whole argument.

Like it of not, though, the Isarelis are there to stay, regardless of either your opinion or mine....what we discuss is not going to change things one bit. For the most part, the Israelis are going nowhere. The Palestinians are going to have to accept it.

Well, I for one highly doubt it. I strongly believe it is the matter of when, not if, that Israel will get massively attacked and basically wiped out.

[oohpapi44]

Originally Posted by Bitkahuna

Syria, Hezbollah, Iran, and the Palaestinian areas obviously think not. I think they would be happy to have the state of Israel not exist, not be governed by Jewish people. Anyone disagree with that?

Wouldn't it make more sense to post a more accurate statement and have an intelligent discussion versus inflaming Jews from the start and lumping anyone else who disagrees with them as Anti-Semitic. I have NEVER heard or seen any news reports (if I'm wrong, please POST THEM) of anyone of the above groups you've mentioned besides the idiot in Iran ever call for the extermination of Israel. Hezbollah and the Palestinians are the two main entities involved in direct conflict with Israel and if anyone would want Israel wiped off the planet, it would be them, but I don't hear any leaders speaking about Israel not having a right to exist. Their argument stems over Israel not recognizing the LEGAL borders declared in the West Bank. Now of course Marshall and Dave will start talking about the Bible and how it's Israels land which will of course deflect from the main point as always. We are a civilization of laws and LEGAL borders have been declared but yet Israel places itself above the law and builds and expands on illegal settlements on 'hallowed' ground. We aren't talking about Iowa here, we are talking about land which has as much if not more significance to Muslims as it does Christians, Jews, etc.
So why not ask questions that address both sides of the issue.

Should Israel be forced to live up to the US mandate of dismantling the illegal settlements and respecting the borders of the West Bank?

[bitkahuna]

Fair points oohpapi44 about Israel respecting borders. I thought Sharon had implemented the dismantling of settlements though (probably partly at U.S. insistence).

But do you really think ONLY that "idiot in Iran" believes what he does?

(I really wish you'd get rid of that violent avatar by the way).

[alexulan]

Originally Posted by oohpapi44

we are talking about land which has as much if not more significance to Muslims as it does Christians, Jews, etc.

What a bunch of BS.

Please tell me all the references to Jerusalem in the Koran.
Go ahead take your time.


Give up. It's none.

The connection between the Jewish People and the City of Jerusalem is one of the most well documented facts in world history. In Jewish traditional sources, the word "Jerusalem" is mentioned over 600 times, at least 140 times in the New Testament, but never in the Koran.

So glad Och is back in the debate forum.
Say Och, have you let your wife read your threads here yet?

[oohpapi44]

Fair points oohpapi44 about Israel respecting borders. I thought Sharon had implemented the dismantling of settlements though (probably partly at U.S. insistence).

But do you really think ONLY that "idiot in Iran" believes what he does?

Settlements in the Gaza strip yes, but that was land that no one wanted and still is largely unpopulated. The issue has always been the West Bank and the settlements there are ever-growing, in defiance of US policy

This was in June of last year but a key point of this is Israel ignored this mandate completely and as mentioned in the article faced no penalty. So lets be absolutely neutral in this argument and ask: What else is Hamas supposed to do when Israel seems to not answer to anyone to keep the spotlight on their 'cause' In no uncertain terms do I condone the actions of Hamas or Hezbollah but if you're going to be honest about the conflict you can argue that Israel causes them to exist. As long as these groups exist, we have to ask why is there a conflict. The Palestinian state's existence largely depends on the economy of Israel so the thought of Palestine wanting the extermination of Israel doesn't make sense at all. Israel has a direct hand in the violence that's permeated the region and no one seems to want to state that publicly on US soil out of fear of being labeled an Anti-Semite.

Who does Israel answer to?

As for the 'idiot' in Iran, he's the only in a leadership position to publicly state it but most if not all realize it's hot air to try mobilize the fanatics but have you heard any group join in and state that's their ultimate goal. I can't say that I have, most of what I hear is these groups taking up the 'Palestinian' fight which comes back to the West Bank issue.

Rice tells Israel to stop expanding West Bank settlements

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JERUSALEM - US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has turned up the pressure on Israel to stop expanding West Bank settlements, cautioning in her recent visit that Washington wouldn’t accept new construction, Israeli officials said on Sunday.



The US Embassy and Israeli Foreign Ministry refused to comment. But the scolding meshes with US President George W. Bush’s criticism of settlement expansion after meeting with Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas last month.



Israeli officials present at a meeting where Rice leveled the criticism said she did not threaten any particular penalty for settlement expansion. But they said she was displeased by construction she saw when traveling from Jerusalem to the West Bank town of Ramallah for meetings with Palestinian leaders a week ago.



The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of their positions.



Friction between the US and Israel has surfaced over different readings of Bush’s April 2004 statement that a peace settlement would have to take Israel’s main settlement blocs into account.



Israel continues to build in its largest settlement, Maaleh Adumim, and other established West Bank communities, and to expropriate Palestinian land in annexed east Jerusalem, which the Palestinians claim as capital of a future state.



The US maintains that new construction on land the Palestinians claim for a future state violates the terms of the US-backed “road map” peace plan, which Washington hopes to revive after Israel pulls out of the Gaza Strip and four northern West Bank settlements this summer. The long-stalled plan calls on Israel to freeze all settlement activity, while requiring the Palestinians to dismantle militant groups. Neither side has fulfilled its obligations.



Israeli officials said Rice said the US wouldn’t be coerced to accept new facts on the ground that Israel is creating in its effort to influence a final peace deal. Israel has to stop the settlement expansion before it becomes a problem, the officials cited her as saying.



After meeting with Abbas last month, Bush cautioned that “Israel should not undertake any activity that contravenes road map obligations or prejudice final status negotiations with regard to Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem.”



Rice was in the region to promote coordination between Israel and the Palestinians on the pullout. All sides recognize that without coordination, Palestinian militants are liable to attack withdrawing settlers and the security forces evacuating them, to create the impression that Israel is being driven out.



Clashes between the two sides have escalated in recent weeks. A second Israeli teenager wounded last week by Palestinian gunmen near the West Bank city of Hebron died Sunday, hospital officials said.



Later in the day, an abandoned Palestinian store in Hebron was set ablaze, and a Palestinian man said he was beaten by Jewish settlers near a Jewish shrine in the city, West bank police spokesman Shlomi Sagi said. The man was taken to a hospital with light-to-moderate head injuries, Sagi said.



The Israeli Cabinet, meanwhile, continued sweetening the pot in an effort to defuse widespread settler resistance to the evacuation. On Sunday, it approved new concessions to settlers who are to be uprooted, including deeply discounted land in a prime coastal area not far from Gaza.



Israeli security forces are afraid rogue settlers or their supporters will open fire on evacuating troops. On Sunday, lawmaker Zvi Hendel, a settler leader, said settlers wouldn’t resort to gunfire during the evacuation. “There will be no civil war in Gush Katif,” he said, referring to the largest settlement bloc in Gaza.

[oohpapi44]

Originally Posted by Alexulan

Please tell me all the references to Jerusalem in the Koran.
Go ahead take your time.


Give up. It's none.

The connection between the Jewish People and the City of Jerusalem is one of the most well documented facts in world history. In Jewish traditional sources, the word "Jerusalem" is mentioned over 600 times, at least 140 times in the New Testament, but never in the Koran.

And yet you wonder why there is no peace?

Lets try this again; and leave religion out of this. Religion is a personal choice between you and your GOD whomever that may be. We are a civilization based on LAWS as the final say in this realm. There were legal boundaries established that are recognized by the US, stick to the THAT issue.

[alexulan]

Originally Posted by oohpapi44

And yet you wonder why there is no peace?

Lets try this again; and leave religion out of this. Religion is a personal choice between you and your GOD whomever that may be. We are a civilization based on LAWS as the final say in this realm. There were legal boundaries established that are recognized by the US, stick to the THAT issue.

First off I have never wondered why there is no peace. I know why.
Second I'm not the one that made this comment

"we are talking about land which has as much if not more significance to Muslims as it does Christians, Jews, etc."

That was you.

"There were legal boundaries established that are recognized by the US, stick to the THAT issue"

Fine the issue is not the US but the Arabs recognizing the Legal Boundaries of Israel and not firing rockets onto said country, blowing up it's schools and murdering it's children. Regardless of how US or any other country view the legality of Israel's right to exist they are not the ones under fire. Israel has tried many times to use land for peace as a means to establish peace. I think outside of Egypt it has never worked.

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by Och

Well, I for one highly doubt it. I strongly believe it is the matter of when, not if, that Israel will get massively attacked and basically wiped out.

Maybe at the end of time when Armegeddon comes...certainly not before then.

[oohpapi44]

Fine the issue is not the US but the Arabs recognizing the Legal Boundaries of Israel and not firing rockets onto said country, blowing up it's schools and murdering it's children. Regardless of how US or any other country view the legality of Israel's right to exist they are not the ones under fire. Israel has tried many times to use land for peace as a means to establish peace. I think outside of Egypt it has never worked.

How do you broker 'land for peace' with SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND? I do not condone the actions of Hamas or any other militant group but Israel has a direct hand in the existence of these organizations and I just want to hear ONE supporter of Israel acknowledge that. The reason why you don't is to admit that Israel needs to dismantle the settlements and give the PEOPLE of Palestine or Lebanon a reason to voice to their govt's that there is no need for Hamas or Hezbollah. But why would they do that when it seems that those groups are the only ones fighting for what has been legally declared to be Palestinian soil.

Israel wants to create civil wars in Lebanon and Palestine before it even acknowledges its future actions within the West Bank but in the meantime build a wall and seal it off.

And for the record, Israel DOES have the blood of children on its hands as well. Just because we in this country call one act a suicide bomber and the other is a 'targeted assination' does not make them different when those innocent lives are lost.

So once again, my question is: Who does Israel answer to?