Go Back   Club Lexus Forums > General Forums > The Clubhouse > The Debate Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-05, 06:50 PM   #1
1SICKLEX
XELKCIS1
 
1SICKLEX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 41,116
Send a message via Yahoo to 1SICKLEX
Default Tax Reformers Eye Breaks for Housing

http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20...eaksforhousing

Just as the nation's housing boom appears to be slowing, debate is starting among policymakers about reining in one of the most sacred cows of American public policy: the mortgage-interest deduction and other generous tax benefits granted to homeowners.

ADVERTISEMENT

A presidential commission on tax reform will take up the subject for the first time Tuesday. "Everything's on the table," said Charles Rossotti, a panel member who was commissioner of internal revenue from 1997 to 2002.

The mortgage-interest deduction saved homeowners $61.5 billion last year. No one expects the commission to recommend its elimination.

Instead, the panel may consider scaling back the deduction for mortgage interest on second homes or home-equity loans, and changing the deduction for property taxes, among other things.

The stakes in such a discussion are huge.

Changing the tax benefits for homeowners, even if done slowly, could cause short-term convulsions in the market as buyers recalculate what they can afford. The tumult could be most pronounced for homeowners in states with the highest home prices, such as California. In the long term, housing could become more affordable as some of the stimulus that has sent prices soaring is removed.

Any proposed shift would encounter strong and possibly overwhelming resistance. But with a rising federal budget deficit, the prospects for change are much greater than they've ever been, say those involved in the debate.

Homeownership wasn't initially a favored child. When the individual tax code was created in 1913, all types of interest were deductible. Most fell away over time, but housing remained and became even more special.

Eight years ago, capital-gains taxes were eliminated for home sellers who had profit of as much as $250,000 (for individuals) or $500,000 (for couples). That has created a vast amount of wealth and helped power a housing boom that has seen prices double or triple in Southern California and other hot markets.

Some policymakers and analysts are beginning to wonder whether such breaks are providing the wrong incentives, giving hefty deductions to millionaires buying Beverly Hills estates as well as to speculators snapping up Las Vegas ranch houses, hoping to turn a quick profit.

U.S. Comptroller General David M. Walker said provisions such as the capital-gains exemption were costing the government much more money than anyone forecast when they were first proposed. In a new study, the Government Accountability Office calculated that the exemption drained $29.7 billion from federal coffers last year.

"We need to review the reasonableness, appropriateness and effectiveness" of such provisions, Walker said in an interview.

Presidents and members of Congress have long proclaimed the importance of homeownership, saying it gives people roots in a neighborhood and makes them better, more caring citizens. A home, not a college education or a fulfilling job, is the embodiment of the American dream. Politicians also are mindful of the fact that the nation's 74 million homeowners form one of its largest special-interest groups.

President Bush set up the President's Advisory Panel on Tax Reform in January to recommend changes in the tax code. The panel, led by former Sens. Connie Mack (R-Fla.) and John B. Breaux (D-La.), will submit suggestions to Treasury Secretary John W. Snow this fall. Bush will choose among the recommendations to propose to Congress.

Bush specifically charged the panel to take account of "the importance of homeownership and charity in American society."

That led many to conclude that the homeowner deductions were safe.

"The mother of all tax subsidies … shall remain untouched," wrote economist and tax expert Martin A. Sullivan in Tax Notes.

This was good news for real estate agents, developers, home builders, contractors, home-improvement stores and speculators — groups that heavily support the status quo. But unfortunately for them, the mood changed over the summer.

"There has been a growing expectation that the framework for taxing housing could be revised," said National Assn. of Realtors tax counsel Linda Goold.

One reason for the shift: the expected demise of the alternative minimum tax. Originally designed to make sure those with high incomes didn't deduct their tax liabilities away, the alternative minimum tax is not indexed for inflation.

As a result, the number of people who will have to pay the tax is expected to increase dramatically over the next decade, eventually incorporating much of the upper middle class.

At a meeting in July, the nine members of the tax reform panel agreed unanimously to recommend eliminating the alternative minimum tax as an unfair and poorly designed parallel tax system. Because their mandate is to be revenue neutral, that required them to come up with $1.2 trillion in other receipts over the next decade.

"The money has to be found by either raising rates or changing tax expenditures," panel member Elizabeth Garrett said.

Tax expenditures are the government's term for money it forgoes because of targeted tax relief. According to the Government Accountability Office, the number of tax expenditures has risen since 1974 from 67 to 146. The annual amount of lost revenue has tripled during that time, to $728 billion. That's about twice the size of the current budget deficit.

The biggest tax expenditure, totaling more than $100 billion in its various permutations, is to homeowners. Almost as big are employers' tax-free contributions to their employees' health benefits and the tax-free status of 401(k) contributions.

"We privilege homeownership as a form of investment by a considerable amount," said Garrett, a professor of law and politics at USC. "You always have to ask yourself, is preferential treatment justified?"

She noted that homeowners could deduct interest paid on up to $1 million in mortgage debt on a first or second home, and that the deduction was worth more to families in higher tax brackets.

"If we were going to subsidize homeownership through a spending program," Garrett said, "it's not clear this is how we'd design it."

Others are wondering the same thing. Last winter, Congress' Joint Committee on Taxation recommended repealing the deduction for home equity loans, contending that it was inconsistent with the fact that interest on other types of personal loans are not deductible.

In February, the Congressional Budget Office said cutting the $1-million mortgage deductibility ceiling in half would raise $2.7 billion from 700,000 homeowners.

A sudden drop in the ceiling "would reduce home values, mortgage lending and home building at the top end of the housing market," the study's authors acknowledged. Their solution: Phase it in gradually.

A notable feature of the recent housing boom is that it has enriched many owners but hasn't expanded homeownership, which is supposed to be the point of the tax benefits.

Four years ago, the homeownership rate was 68.1%. Now it's 68.6%. Even when the time span is extended to decades, scholars find little discernible effect from all the homeowner subsidies.

"One could argue that the social benefits of homeownership may not be worth" the $100 billion-plus in lost tax revenue every year, government analyst Pamela J. Jackson wrote in an article this summer for the Congressional Research Service.

Stephen Levy, director of the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy in Palo Alto, agreed that tax benefits for housing had gotten out of whack.

"We ended up providing more of a subsidy than anyone intended, and to folks we didn't intend to," Levy said.

The 1997 elimination of capital-gains taxes on home sellers' profits is a particular study in unintended consequences.

"Hands down, bar none, that was the most taxpayer-friendly proposal I've seen in my career, which is a long one," said Goold of the Realtors association.

A nonpartisan budget group estimated that the capital-gains measure would cost the government $5.8 billion in lost revenue over 10 years. Instead, it's been about 60 times that.

One modification Garrett said the tax panel could consider: raising the period the homeowner must live in the house to qualify for the capital-gains exclusion. Currently it is two years.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipMSPT View Post
I'd rather walk into my parents having sex, instead of looking at those wheels...
1SICKLEX is online now  
Old 10-09-05, 08:46 AM   #2
bitkahuna
Going with the flow...
 
bitkahuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: FL
Posts: 29,970
Default

Interesting.

As an economist would say... On the one hand, an incentive for first time home buyers (the mortgage interest deduction) is great. But on the other hand it's just a boondoggle for wealthy property speculators and 2nd home owners.

If it were capped at a lower level than today to remain an incentive for lower priced homes then it would only be a matter of time before it was eliminated altogether, as they did in Britain over time. Canada also has no mortgage interest deduction. Also, if it were capped it might end up affecting different areas of the country very differently. For example in many parts of California people have to abandon contributions to 401ks, IRAs, and any other savings just to get into their first home, also relying on the mortgage interest deduction to help out. So to make caps work evenly across the country is complex.

The flip side of the mortgage interest deduction though is property and school taxes which only home owners pay. Those taxes usually more than wipe out any mortgage interest deduction.

This could be an interesting tax fight and it will be amusing to watch 'tax and spend' politicians tie themselves in knots trying to explain what they think is 'fair'.

OT but speaking of 'fair' and taxes, I haven't seen many Liberals railing against the state and multi-state lotteries which bring in huge revenues that vastly and disproportionately come from lower income players. Personally I love the lotteries! (Not that I play!)
__________________
TLN #911 President * Stop Global Whining * Star Evil Gnoma Su
personal blog infinite competition blog
bitkahuna is offline  
Old 10-17-05, 04:27 PM   #3
Vegassc400
Lexus Champion
 
Vegassc400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Glued to my desk.
Posts: 3,742
Default

Lowering the deduction cap on mortgage deductions will severely damage the middle and upper middle classes in the higher priced home markets such as all of Cali and Seattle. Someone with a $500,000 mortgage, which is typical in some parts of the country, would lose approximately 40% of their Schedule A deductions. I'll post more on this later if anyone is interested.
__________________
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/judoguy/sig2.jpg
The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in combat.

2005 Toyota Sequoia Limited
1995 SC400. Platinum with black interior.
Performance - Custom exhaust. Injen Intake. CD/Slotted Rotors.
Exterior - 19" Racing Hart M5's. BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW tires. Painted Engine Bay. D-Speed clear corners.
Interior - Pioneer DVD Head Unit. Sylvania Silverstar headlights. Lextech Gauge Cluster. Leatherseats.com Two Tone.
Vegassc400 is offline  
Old 10-17-05, 10:32 PM   #4
bitkahuna
Going with the flow...
 
bitkahuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: FL
Posts: 29,970
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegassc400
Lowering the deduction cap on mortgage deductions will severely damage the middle and upper middle classes in the higher priced home markets such as all of Cali and Seattle. Someone with a $500,000 mortgage, which is typical in some parts of the country, would lose approximately 40% of their Schedule A deductions. I'll post more on this later if anyone is interested.
Maybe that will make the left coast real estate pricing more reasonable from the ludicrously inflated levels it's at.
__________________
TLN #911 President * Stop Global Whining * Star Evil Gnoma Su
personal blog infinite competition blog
bitkahuna is offline  
Old 10-20-05, 12:20 PM   #5
Vegassc400
Lexus Champion
 
Vegassc400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Glued to my desk.
Posts: 3,742
Default

It's possible Bit, but tax code reformation is certainly not the way to handle inflated home prices and for people already in homes, it could spell disaster for them to lose market value.

Stabilizing the real estate market has always been based on supply and demand. In 10 years when the Baby Boomers begin selling their homes to move into smaller homes or retirement communities, that will have big impact.
__________________
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/judoguy/sig2.jpg
The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in combat.

2005 Toyota Sequoia Limited
1995 SC400. Platinum with black interior.
Performance - Custom exhaust. Injen Intake. CD/Slotted Rotors.
Exterior - 19" Racing Hart M5's. BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW tires. Painted Engine Bay. D-Speed clear corners.
Interior - Pioneer DVD Head Unit. Sylvania Silverstar headlights. Lextech Gauge Cluster. Leatherseats.com Two Tone.
Vegassc400 is offline  
Old 10-20-05, 01:03 PM   #6
IS0LD0UT
Lead Lap
 
IS0LD0UT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 455
Default

Im not really sure of the impact of changing the tax deductions. I think taxing homeselling profits might be a start, especially when people are buying and selling more than one homes in the short term. This profit should be taxed like any other capital gain such as stock and interest. Maybe give a break to the long term home owner, similar to long term stock ownership.

Either the way the taxes go, the housing market is going to need a re-adjustment in the near future. I am a guy in my early 20s and making some decent money. I was looking to buy my first house a few months ago, after searching around, I realized the price of houses were crazy. I could get a much nicer and better location for my money by renting. I think the savings, location, and having no repair/maintenance costs clearly outweighs any equity I would have built. Now if I can't afford a house, think of all the people making less than me, they must be spending 80% of their monthy income to keep a roof over their head. What happedened to the 45% figure? Something has got to change.
IS0LD0UT is offline  
Old 10-21-05, 12:20 PM   #7
Vegassc400
Lexus Champion
 
Vegassc400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Glued to my desk.
Posts: 3,742
Default

Short term home sales are already taxed as well as investment properties. If you sell your personal residence and you haven't lived in it for more than 2 years, you pay Capital Gains tax on the profit. If you live in your personal residence for more than 2 years, then you can make up to $250,000, or $500,000 if you're married, and pay no Capital Gains tax. In other words, the only people making money on homes, and not being taxed up the butt, are families.

This works out great for families that are expanding. You can sell a small home and use the profit to purchase a larger home. It pushes the housing market. If people had to start paying Capital Gains on personal residence sales, fewer families would be taking that step which will hurt the housing market and the economy.
__________________
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/judoguy/sig2.jpg
The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in combat.

2005 Toyota Sequoia Limited
1995 SC400. Platinum with black interior.
Performance - Custom exhaust. Injen Intake. CD/Slotted Rotors.
Exterior - 19" Racing Hart M5's. BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW tires. Painted Engine Bay. D-Speed clear corners.
Interior - Pioneer DVD Head Unit. Sylvania Silverstar headlights. Lextech Gauge Cluster. Leatherseats.com Two Tone.
Vegassc400 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:06 PM.

Go

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Copyright © 2000-2008 Internet Brands, Inc. All Rights Reserved
Privacy Policy | Disclaimer | Terms of Use | JOBS