Delta and Northwest

[RON430]

Maybe nobody cares but maybe this could generate some comments that are better in the debate forum. Years ago when people asked me what airline we used I used to respond "We fly bankrupt." It was meant to be a joke but in a small business we try to save money everywhere. As soon as someone filed bankruptcy, their fares went down. But now it is getting harder to not fly a bankrupt airline. Our short haul carrier is Southwest if possible but their schedules and to tell you the truth their prices aren't suitable for longer flights where we fly American. But does anybody care? Is it just more sign of decline or is it simply shifting economic priorities. The old saw is that no one has ever made money in the airline business. Maybe it's true with few exceptions.

Delta and Northwest File for Bankruptcy By HARRY R. WEBER and JOSHUA FREED, AP Business Writers

Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp., hobbled by high fuel costs and heavy debt and pension obligations, filed for bankruptcy protection from creditors Wednesday, becoming the third and fourth major carriers to enter Chapter 11 since the 2001 terrorist attacks.

Delta's late afternoon filing included its low-fare subsidiary Song and was followed shortly after by Northwest's.

Delta's total debt is roughly $28.3 billion, and it listed $21.6 billion in assets, according to the filing. The asset figure would make Delta's bankruptcy the ninth-largest in U.S. history, according to bankruptcy tracker New Generation Research Inc. The ranking did not change following Delta's recent $425 million sale of feeder carrier Atlantic Southeast Airlines to SkyWest Inc.

Delta and Northwest said passengers were not expected to see any immediate effects from the filing. Delta also promised to honor all tickets and sent a letter to frequent-flier customers seeking to reassure them. Northwest said it would continue to operate normally its frequent flyer and WorldPerks Visa programs.

"We are operating our full schedule of flights, honoring tickets and reservations as usual, and making normal refunds and exchanges," Gerald Grinstein, chief executive of Delta, said in the letter.

Chapter 11 protection will allow Delta to pursue cuts in wages for its 65,000-plus full-time employees, as well as pension and health benefits for workers and retirees, that would have been more difficult or impossible without protected status.

Delta was expected to continue its normal schedule. However, as the company makes its way through bankruptcy court, some changes to Delta's operations could occur, analysts say.

Atlanta-based Delta, the nation's third-largest carrier, has lost nearly $10 billion over the last four years despite announcing it would cut up to 24,000 jobs. The airline industry was hit hard by the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, which prompted many people to cut back on air travel.

In September 2004, Delta also said it would shed its Dallas hub as part of a sweeping turnaround plan aimed at saving the airline. It has since scaled back its operations in Dallas.

Northwest, the country's fourth-largest airline, had been in better financial shape than some of its competitors, with an extensive Asian network and cargo business both thought to be profitable. But that changed after 9-11, the rise in fuel prices and the epidemic of SARS, a virus that spread through several Asian countries, which cut into a core Northwest business.

The recession and slow economic recovery in the early part of the decade also eroded airlines' business, and the rise of low-cost carriers such as JetBlue Airways Corp. further stymied the big carriers' rebound.

Delta said it is arranging roughly $2 billion in post-petition financing and already received a commitment for $1.7 billion in financing.

Delta and Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest follow into bankruptcy UAL Corp., the Elk Grove Village, Ill.-based parent of United Airlines, and Arlington, Va.-based US Airways Group, Inc., which is undergoing reorganization for the second time in three years. Fort Worth, Texas-based AMR Corp., the parent of American Airlines, the nation's biggest carrier, teetered on the verge of bankruptcy before winning deep concessions from its employees. The other so-called legacy carrier, among those with a large presence in multiple regions prior to deregulation in 1978, is Houston-based Continental Airlines Inc.

Continental and American are in no immediate danger of bankruptcy. Continental had a big cost advantage over other traditional airlines after it slashed expenses during two bankruptcy reorganizations in the 1990s. American may be the strongest financially of the traditional airlines, thanks to $1.8 billion in annual labor concessions it won in 2003. Its parent company actually turned a profit in the second quarter.

But even the stronger carriers are finding business harder with fuel prices soaring, carrying crude oil futures past $70 a barrel earlier this month.

Some smaller carriers, including Honolulu-based Hawaiian Airlines and Indianapolis-based ATA Airlines Inc., also have filed for bankruptcy in recent years. Hawaiian emerged from bankruptcy in June.

Throughout 2004, Delta warned investors that it may have to file for bankruptcy if it didn't get deep wage concessions from its pilots and restructure its heavy debt. Then, last fall, it got $1 billion in pilot concessions and another $1.1 billion in fresh financing, giving the airline some much-needed breathing room.

But fuel prices began to soar, and the losses continued.

While all the major airlines have suffered from labor and fuel issues, some say Delta's situation has been made more difficult because of how long it took to get the pilot concessions. Airline expert Terry Trippler said he believes Delta should have filed for bankruptcy much sooner.

"That Delta attitude, it's been there a long time, it's what made them great, and its what made them hesitant to seek protection long ago," said Trippler, who runs travel Web site cheapseats.com.

Since Delta first came to the edge of bankruptcy last year, its pilot ranks have thinned as some have retired early. Retiring Delta pilots can elect to receive half their pension benefits in a lump sum and the other half as an annuity later — a move that could ensure they received at least some payout even if Delta later filed for bankruptcy. It's not clear how the lump sum benefit would be affected in bankruptcy, but bankruptcy judges have great leeway in approving changes to company operations.

As of June 30, Delta and its subsidiaries had 65,300 full-time employees and 869 total aircraft that the airline owned or leased. Delta also owns a regional feeder carrier, Comair Inc., and Song.

Delta is the nation's third-largest airline in terms of annual revenue; Northwest is the fourth largest. Delta has hubs in Atlanta, Cincinnati and Salt Lake City. Delta also is a major U.S. carrier to Europe.

Though based in Atlanta, Delta decided to file for bankruptcy in New York. Bankruptcy experts say some major companies based elsewhere file in New York because that is where much of the investment community is located and because bankruptcy judges there are perceived to be predictable in how they handle major cases. Mississippi-based WorldCom Inc. filed for Chapter 11 in New York in 2002.

[RON430]

As a consumer, this one may have hit it better than anything else I have seen in a long time.

Flying the bankrupt skies
Commentary: No pillow? No problem these days

By David Callaway, MarketWatch
Last Update: 7:04 PM ET Sept. 14, 2005

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- "Would you like anything to drink before we take off," the pleasant airline steward said on a United Airlines flight to New York last year.

"Sure, how about a champagne or a mimosa," I said, delighted at that moment with the upgrade gods, who tend to smile on me about as often as a lunar eclipse.

"Champagne? Are you kidding, we're bankrupt," the steward said jokingly, to the laughter of the rest of the business class cabin. "Here, have orange juice."

And so goes life these days on Bankrupt Air, the newest and soon to be largest airline system in the United States. With Delta Air Lines (DAL: news, chart, profile) and Northwest Airlines (NWAC: news, chart, profile) joining United (UALAQ: news, chart, profile) , US Airways Group (UAIRQ: news, chart, profile) , and a host of smaller airlines operating under protection from creditors, more than half of all the seats on flights in the United States will be on bankrupt airlines, according to Standard & Poor's.

Experts said Wednesday that passengers should not expect to see any changes on the airlines just because they've gone Chapter 11. See full story.

That's for sure. The long, slow slide into mediocrity for U.S. airlines began long before the bankruptcy attorneys sank their claws into the books. And it will continue long after the latest trend has expired and a new round of airline management takes a shot at reviving the troubled industry.

Forget champagne. The days when passengers regarded air travel as a luxury, dressing up for flights as glamorous attendants passed out captain's wings to children, have been over for 20 years. These days most flyers - even in business or first class - look more like they just came out of a locker room or baseball game than a dinner party. Sweat pants, tank tops, shorts and flip-flops are the norm, perfect attire to go with that warm Bud Light and $7 snack box.

Like the chicken and the egg question, it's hard to know whether deteriorating service caused passengers to start dressing down, or the other way around. But one thing's for sure, the idea that an airline has no money and that its flight crew and staff are facing uncertain futures has done nothing to deter people from packing planes.

And it won't now either.

Like the docile herd of cattle we've become in accepting almost any inconvenience in our lives these days, we pile on to bankrupt, cramped planes, jam our oversized luggage into the overhead bins, turn off our electronic gadgets and computers, and wait with dread for the person in front of us to recline.

That sense of despair over the state of the industry has long hung over its stocks. The Amex Airline Index (XAL: news, chart, profile) has never recovered from 9/11, even though most of the flying public has. It's trading now at about a third of the level it was at the beginning of 2001.

With no future as an investment, except maybe for the arbitragers, and little hope that conditions will improve on the planes soon, the U.S. flying public has accepted the fact that its airlines are bankrupt like just another pack of peanuts on its greasy tray.

Two years ago, at a conference for journalists in Dallas, I asked the heads of three of the major airlines at a big panel discussion what type of new services or amenities they had on their blackboards that might someday entice flyers to their brands.

Following the success of Jet Blue Airways (JBLU: news, chart, profile) , with its leather seats and individual TV screens, this question seemed like a home run opportunity for anyone even remotely considering customer comfort as part of their business plan.

Yet to a man, each of the chief executives said that his main priority was improving his airline's on-time rates, and that if they could guarantee on-time performance, that would trump any need for conveniences such as TV, Internet access, food, pillows or plush seats.

Imagine sinking so low that simply leaving and arriving on schedule is where the airlines have set their performance bars? I always thought that's what we paid for in the first place.

[bitkahuna]

Good articles Ron. The second one shows a complete lack of imagination by airline CEOs if their main goal is just to be on time. That's crazy.

I don't know if Virgin Air is profitable but they're certainly innovative. British Air is profitable too. But airlines like Delta which I flew a lot for years, have been mismanaged for at least a decade. Delta's poor management raked in VAST compensation packages while losing a fortune, and its pilots were the highest paid in the industry by far (and still are I believe).

So as service got worse and worse as costs were 'hacked' off of operations, the airlines didn't really do anything to fix their long term viability. And their unions continued to live with the delusion that their jobs were glamorous or actually difficult, which they were neither any longer. Let's face it, with almost completely automated planes, pilots are more like glamorous bus drivers these days. They have little if anything to do once except take off and land and computers can do both those things too. So pilot salaries are under pressure. And flight attendants? A LOUSY job in my opinion, but certainly shouldn't be a high paying one, although they do serve a more important function than restaurant 'wait staff' because in the event of a serious but not completely fatal problem they can help save lives.

But SouthWest continues to make money, showing it can be done. They use less popular airports, fly point to point, use the same planes everywhere, and run a REALLY tight operation turning around planes faster than anyone. And their salaries appropriately reflect the roles. SouthWest could become the Wal*Mart of airlines. Not fancy, but predictable, cheap, and eventually, HUGE.

Business conditions change, and companies that can't adapt fail. The recent rise in oil/fuel prices may have been the final straw for Delta and NorthWorst, but it is ultimately a good thing as these airlines just seemed incapable of reforming themselves.

[mmarshall]

Airlines are a notoriously fickle and risky buisness....for many reasons. Most of the ones I knew and remember as a kid have long since folded.....and replaced by new ones. Even if I was not prohibited by law from buying airline stocks like I am because I am an FAA employee, I still would not invest in them by choice...it is just too risky a buisness.

[Lil4X]

It's kind of sad to see the changes in the airline industry over the years. I remember when flying was a great adventure. Men wore suits and ties, and women wore heels . . . Today, I wear better (and often, cleaner) clothes to cut my lawn than most of the "cattle" wear when traveling by air. Air terminals are populated by the same army of screaming children and scruffy, furtive-looking adults that you used to see at the Greyhound station a few years ago.

I really feel for the flight attendants too. Once selected for their youth, charm, and appearance -they've been replaced by rather ordinary women, some pretty matronly, and most of whom would have been passed over on the first cut, were it not for EEOC regulations. Back in then late '60's and early '70's, airlines hired "stewardesses" who projected the image of the airline . . . anyone remember Braniff FA's with their Pierre Cardin suits and white Courreges go-go boots? National, even staid old Eastern got into the “fashion wars” Gucci, Pucci and company went flying – the flight attendants were the billboards for the airline - every one of them was beautiful, most stunningly so. Perfectly coiffed, these gorgeous creatures could wear the impeccably tailored designer uniforms and make them look like they'd just stepped out of the pages of Vogue. Most airlines had several changes of outfits on transcontinental or international flights.

They might have looked like escapees from a bunny hutch, but they were no bimbos. Almost all had at least a year or two of college - some had degrees - all were quite smart, coolly efficient, and unfailingly cheerful. At the end of the business day, it was a treat to fly home, while being served a hot restaurant-quality meal and a drink by your own corporate geisha. Yeah, you'd be back - it made paying for the ticket so much less painful when you were served a nightcap, had a pillow placed under your head, and all but tucked into your blanket by the girl of your dreams as you sped across the time zones toward the dawn.

Today's FA's look more like bus drivers - and many act like them too. This isn't a service business anymore. While sex, actual or implied, was never a part of your ticket price, now you're ordered around by a bossy big sister, tossed a plastic-wrapped sandwich and an orange - if you're lucky - and told that pillows and blankets are in the overhead compartment. Get it yourself, Jack.

What is apparent is part of the coarsening of our world. I have several friends who were once flight attendants – two of whom have daughters who have followed in the profession. All say that the turning point in their careers was not just the EEOC, the pay cuts, and competition from the low-fare airlines, but the opening of bars in the airport concourses. Cities saw an opportunity to turn a buck franchising bars in air terminals across the nation, and went for the gold. The effect was to pour a lot of drunks onto airplanes – transforming the flying experience into three hours trapped in an aluminum tube with a loud, belligerent asshat. Usually several of them.

Where once they had to consume their liquid personality on board, these losers now could tank up like camels going into the desert before they left the ground. No more paying $4.50 each for a two-drink limit on the plane, if you alco-loaded at the gate lounge, you were good to go. The bartender has the advantage – he doesn’t have to throw out any drunks, the airline takes them away. Time and altitude magnify the impact of the alcohol, and about twenty minutes into the flight, good-time Charlie’s firing on all cylinders, either making a spectacle of himself or puking up his socks in the lavatory. Once in a while, physical restraints are necessary.

Most of the airline employees I know have accepted these changes in their industry with the same sadness that afflicts those of us who remember when flying was an occasion. They, more than anyone else, long for the “good old days” when it was all a great adventure. The pilots and first officers busily program their computers for minimal fuel consumption, hitting their waypoints and landing on schedule, then scramble for their “pushback” time for the next leg. Flight attendants in lumpy, “serviceable” tweeds hand out bags of salty nuts and try to make up the fuel cost losses in liquor sales. Get on, sit down, you wanna drink? We have a lovely lukewarm 2005 Budweiser in an attractive aluminum can . . . yes ma’am, the crapper is that way . . .

[J.P.]

What point is being made about how people dress on planes? Maybe I am missing it so can someone help me out?

[Gojirra99]

Air travel has been getting increasingly more common place now.
Unless you're travelling first class or business class, the majority are in the econ section & it's uncomfortable enough there already, especially for long distance flight, & people are expected to dress up ?
I' ve been in business/first class too, & the best thing about it is that you can lie down comfortably to sleep, so why bother dressing up ? Unless you have to go to a business meeting right off the plane . . .

[RON430]

Originally Posted by jpa2400

What point is being made about how people dress on planes? Maybe I am missing it so can someone help me out?

I don't think I can do this justice. Hopefully people that can put words together than I will chime in. I am a pilot. I love flying. I did it professionally for a while. Well, you might be able to debate that but the Navy paid me to fly. Having said that, I have come to really dislike flying commercially. We have a great rush for our society to permit individuals to act and perform in almost any fashion as long as no one else dies. That is a harsh statement but how many functions in your life qualify for what air travel used to be? There is nothing in my life anymore where we see a gentler side of society where people appreciate they are doing something out of the ordinary, actually dress like they not only care what other people think but demonstrate they have a mirror, and participate in an event where they are treated with respect, courtesy, and maturity? Sure glad the young guys here that are still on the hunt to spawn can find partners. I wouldn't mind rolling back my personal odometer a bit but young girls appear to be in a rush to prove they can't speak English very well, can't dress well, and have so little mental capaticity functioning to make Paris Hilton a role model.

So those of us who have memories of what air travel used to be like resent becoming self loading cargo in the eyes of the airlines. But the awful truth is that we cannot deny responsibility. We want low priced tickets. So we have too many airlines but because of competition, every time we fly the planes are overbooked and the airlines are still awash in red ink. Commercial air travel will never go back the way it was but it would sure be nice to have a bit more retro and a little less post modern. Now we will have all the airlines in bankruptcy. American just cannot compete economically with the other majors who get to jetison their pension obligations, leases on old planes, etc. while stuffing in more seats, removing the last vestiges of customer service, and providing us with employees that take their unhappiness out on the flying customers. And I can't figure out what bothers me more. The ruination of air travel or the fact that you and I, the silent taxpayers, are going to pick up the tab once again for a bunch of airline management that made commitments that there was no way they could meet because it put the problems off to the future and everyone got a happy face because of their giveaways and gutless management style and union members who thought their value had no relation to the service they provide and far outweighed the value that you and I are willing to pay for it. Let's not got all depressed over the state of society and the economy but let's also realize there are some things that need to change.

[J.P.]

I guess “back then” air travel was amazing to everyone… And in those times, people didn’t “know” what to do… I look at old pictures of my family and everyone was always dressed up just because….

I don’t see air travel any different then any other travel. Yep catch me in my sweats and comfy cloths when I hit the plane. I am on VACATION. I don’t need to sit in a seat for 4 hours dressed up when I spent the last 6 months dressed up working hard. I want to relax, ditch the business attire and get to the place I want in a relaxed state. Let alone being a stocky 6’1 guy, try stuffing yourself into seats these days in a suit for 4 hours…. Which if I recall you’re a current\ex power lifter Ron so I am sure you understand…..

We all drive luxury cars, how many times have you jumped into your car in shorts or sweats or even flip flops? It’s transportation, not a black tie dinner event. Going from point A to point B and there shouldn’t be an “Unspoken Attire” rule to go with that.

[bitkahuna]

Lil4X - I agree with your observations but perhaps it's capitalism at it's 'best' that has brought this - what the market asked for. Customers have voted with their wallets. They're NOT WILLING TO PAY for great service, so low cost no frills efficient carriers seem to win out over and over. Empty seats are death to an airline, and as families have spread all over the place, the need for cheap airfares has never been greater. As 'dinosaur' airlines have tried to compete on price they've hacked out service niceties and here we are.

I bet if you ask anyone, hey are you will to pay $100 more on that flight for more leg room, a cute flight attendant and a nice meal, they'll overwhelmingly say no, and if it's business travellers their 'travel planners' or the CFO's will say HELL NO.

Maybe a new airline "Greyhoud Air" will start up.

I think there's a market though for higher quality service throughout the cabin (as opposed to just in first class) in very select markets where it can be done proftably. Midway airlines used to do this, are they still around? LOVED travelling on that airline when I had the chance.

[bitkahuna]

Originally Posted by jpa2400

I don’t need to sit in a seat for 4 hours dressed up when I spent the last 6 months dressed up working hard. I want to relax, ditch the business attire and get to the place I want in a relaxed state. ...

We all drive luxury cars, how many times have you jumped into your car in shorts or sweats or even flip flops? It’s transportation, not a black tie dinner event. Going from point A to point B and there shouldn’t be an “Unspoken Attire” rule to go with that.

Can totally understand this. But there IS a difference in driving 'casual' in your OWN CAR and being on a plane crammed in with others. Some people think because the plane is cramped they don't even need to worry about HYGIENE. If someone's gonna wear sweats and flip flops on a plane I still want those clothes and the person to be CLEAN. Plus they might have reconsidered that refried beans burrito or heavy garlic meal and beer they had at the terminal or ... uggh... :

These days when travelling on a plane I expect no service, to be late leaving and/or arriving, cramped, surrounding by cranky people, and stuck in crushes of people going through ridiculous security procedures. It's a gigantic and unpleasant waste of time so I will do it as little as possible. Funny thing is, when most 'professionals' meet at airports all they brag about is how many frequent flyer miles they have and what 'level' they are on the flyer program, who got upgraded when and where they've travelled recently. It's all so silly...

[J.P.]

Originally Posted by bitkahuna

Can totally understand this. But there IS a difference in driving 'casual' in your OWN CAR and being on a plane crammed in with others. Some people think because the plane is cramped they don't even need to worry about HYGIENE. If someone's gonna wear sweats and flip flops on a plane I still want those clothes and the person to be CLEAN. Plus they might have reconsidered that refried beans burrito or heavy garlic meal and beer they had at the terminal or ... uggh... :

These days when travelling on a plane I expect no service, to be late leaving and/or arriving, cramped, surrounding by cranky people, and stuck in crushes of people going through ridiculous security procedures. It's a gigantic and unpleasant waste of time so I will do it as little as possible. Funny thing is, when most 'professionals' meet at airports all they brag about is how many frequent flyer miles they have and what 'level' they are on the flyer program, who got upgraded when and where they've travelled recently. It's all so silly...

Well I agree about your own car, but with the points given above it seems as if because they dressed up "back then" we should now with no real reason. Again, looking at photos, no matter where fam went back then they were dressed up........... Times have changed and so has the market.

Hey I don't care what you wear as long as it's clean, I always expect that regardless of being on a plane or not. I was never one to give more respect to someone because they were in a suit, unless you enjoy judging a book by it's cover, if that's the case the dog is coming to bite you more often then you think.

On your other post I am the same way. I paid $200 for a ticket to NY... I KNOW I will get idiots all around me, rude service, plane will leave late both times, long lines for security and even if I ask for the full can of coke when the lady tries to give me half of one, I can expect a dirty look.

And your right, I won't pay more for the extra stuff because none of it is really worth the $100. The extra leg room will never be enough, how good of a meal do you expect from a plane catering to hundreds of people and if I want eye candy I will spend the $4.34 at the new stand for Maxim and look at hookers the entire flight for a lot less.


Get me to point A to point B ON TIME, I will bring my own beverage, make the ticket reasonable, make the trip safe and if you need to hire drag queens as attendants to save money then whatever, at least say I am sorry when you bust my knee with the drink cart and we are cool.

Maybe it's because I started flying a lot later then you old timers But it's just transportation to me and nothing more. It's nothing special. Millions do it everyday.

[RON430]

Originally Posted by jpa2400

I guess “back then” air travel was amazing to everyone… And in those times, people didn’t “know” what to do… I look at old pictures of my family and everyone was always dressed up just because….

I don’t see air travel any different then any other travel. Yep catch me in my sweats and comfy cloths when I hit the plane. I am on VACATION. I don’t need to sit in a seat for 4 hours dressed up when I spent the last 6 months dressed up working hard. I want to relax, ditch the business attire and get to the place I want in a relaxed state. Let alone being a stocky 6’1 guy, try stuffing yourself into seats these days in a suit for 4 hours…. Which if I recall you’re a current\ex power lifter Ron so I am sure you understand…..

We all drive luxury cars, how many times have you jumped into your car in shorts or sweats or even flip flops? It’s transportation, not a black tie dinner event. Going from point A to point B and there shouldn’t be an “Unspoken Attire” rule to go with that.

I remember being in a lot of different planes with different seat pitches and widths over the years. But it wasn't all that many years ago that most every flight I was on would be a 747 or DC10. On American today you are going to be in what is laughing referred to as an MD80, now a Boeing 717, but in reality it is a commuter level DC9 to me. I can afford on both business and travel to ride up front and it is about the minimum level of seat and quality to me. If anyone from Boeing is here could you please, please teach the guys designing seats to put curves in them instead of all straight lines? Bodies aren't flat guys.

I am afraid the powerlifting days are all gone from a variety of issues. But what used to be 321lbs is now 218lbs which makes it better but my shoulders are still a problem. I can't agree with you more about how you dress for travel. But I also don't particularly feel like saying we have lost nothing because we travel more comfortably now. AIr travel is about as special as a bus ride now. So there is one more part of our lives invaded by screaming kids, flip flops, t shirts, and cutoffs. I understand the reasons and maybe I don't disagree with some of them. Heck, because of that moron shoe bomber, you might as well fly naked now. Why can't they give that guy his shoes back in prison and a bic? Because of him, we all get to go through security barefoot and there is always some grandma who says she feels more safe because of it. But that is getting off the beam. I wasn't trying to justify going back to charming drunk drivers and everyone smoking, I was just trying to talk about something that most people today cannot comprehend. Getting dressed up for anything other than a funeral or putting on a rental tux for a wedding. Watch What Not To Wear and look at all the women wearing black potato sacks because they are "comfortable". And guys are no better.

But then, as I said, the airlines today treat us like self loading cargo so there is little point in putting a suit on to ride in some clapped out 25 year old commuter plan with a surly flight crew who resent us not paying more to secure their retirement after they no longer are able to play flying waitress. As I said, I understand your points and I don't disagree with them. But I don't have to say we haven't lost something.

[RON430]

Originally Posted by bitkahuna

Lil4X - I agree with your observations but perhaps it's capitalism at it's 'best' that has brought this - what the market asked for. Customers have voted with their wallets. They're NOT WILLING TO PAY for great service, so low cost no frills efficient carriers seem to win out over and over. Empty seats are death to an airline, and as families have spread all over the place, the need for cheap airfares has never been greater. As 'dinosaur' airlines have tried to compete on price they've hacked out service niceties and here we are.

I bet if you ask anyone, hey are you will to pay $100 more on that flight for more leg room, a cute flight attendant and a nice meal, they'll overwhelmingly say no, and if it's business travellers their 'travel planners' or the CFO's will say HELL NO.

Maybe a new airline "Greyhoud Air" will start up.

I think there's a market though for higher quality service throughout the cabin (as opposed to just in first class) in very select markets where it can be done proftably. Midway airlines used to do this, are they still around? LOVED travelling on that airline when I had the chance.

bit, I have a feeling we are of the same mind here. Would I pay $100 more to get the good sized seat and maybe a meal that is edible (instead of paying $7 to have them throw a sack at you that most grammar schoolers wouldn't touch), you bet. I get to travel in first class now and it is minimally acceptable but I also approve travel budgets. And what put my panties in a bunch was looking at a flight that was maybe $400 round trip if you booked ahead and stayed over a Saturday (the Saturday stay was specifically designed to screw the business travel, let's be honest. You either paid significantly more or popped for additional hotel and meals and stayed away from your family, thanks airlines for being so compassionate to your union members to screw businesses and families), or you paid $1500 to $2000 for an unrestricted coach class ticket or went up to $2500 to $4000 for a first class ticket. And the vermin at the airlines who put these pricing structures together said they were powerless to do anything about it.

So they kept right on selling more tickets than they knew they had seats, jammed as many seats as they could into as small a plane as they could get, while they kept just continually upping what they paid labor while crapping all over their customers. And now they want bankruptcy courts to rip up their outstanding debts and let them off the hook for negotiating and agreeing to union contracts they should never have gotten into but didn't have the balls to tell people what they worth in order to keep the organization viable. Please, don't read that I am venting on you but we are going to pick up more untold billions of pension plan obligations that I wish I was able to offer to my employees. I am disgusted. As long as I am on a rant, I think the bankruptcy courts are a big part of the problem. If you can't get out of bankruptcy in six to twelve months, you should be liquidated. Three years in bankruptcy for United while they hold on to profitable pacific routes is obscene.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything changing anytime soon. What a pity. It looks like they learned customer service from Microsoft.

[mmarshall]

[quote=RON430]I don't think I can do this justice. Hopefully people that can put words together than I will chime in. I am a pilot. I love flying. I did it professionally for a while. Well, you might be able to debate that but the Navy paid me to fly. Having said that, I have come to really dislike flying commercially. [quote]

Interesting, RON, that you were a Navy pilot. I'm a licensed civilian private pilot ( and ground instructor) but have never been through the kind of training you probably got. I DID successfully land an F-18 Hornet on a carrier deck once....on a good computer program.

I work for the FAA.....In your Navy career you probably used a lot of what I do for a living...instrument approaches and departures. I'm heavily involved in the quality control and production of Terminal procedures and approach plates....the kind you probably used many times on your kneepads and clipboards. it's my job to make sure that the plates are produced correctly and the information on them is accurate. Much of what we are doing now centers around GPS-related flight.

You also say you prefer to ride an airline with CLASS rather than the budget carriers. In that case go with British Airways.....if, of course, they are flying to where you want to go. BA is one class act...it's really hard to beat them....but of course you pay for it.