The latest Motor Trend stated that the GS300 did not use the Avalon's motor because it would bump up too close to the 300bhp for the 430. They then went on to state that the GS would get the Avalon's 3.5 in model year 2008 after Lexus introduces the GS460 within the next year with "the 4.6 making more than 315bhp".
The new body seems to have been a stop-gap for the aging and lackluster sales of the 2nd gen. So, based on the fact that the new 4.6 wasn't ready for prime time - we've got three results:
1> a new body style
2> a GS300 that will receive a healthy bump in bhp during 2007 to 280. That'll make all current 3rd gen GS300 and GS430 owners just feel great. If you have a GS3 how will resale be affected? If you have a 430 then you will only be marginally quicker than the 350.
3> A current GS430 (while more modern) is by all reports slower than the 2nd gen.
IMO, Lexus should have ensured the 3rd gen came out as the GS350 and GS460 right from the start. Instead we've got a new body waiting for the engines to play catch up. It will be interesting to see how the resale value holds.
Next, everybody and their mother (for premium sedans) is blowing by 300bhp with their V-8's and the premium V-6's (cars that cost less) are quickly closing in on the 300bhp marker.
I like quality as much as the next person but I don't value it so much that I'm willing to give up this type of power to buy a 3rd Gen GS. IMO, the 2nd GEN GS400/430 is heck of buy on the used car market - especially when you consider they're half the price of a new model.
Come 2008 - how's the market going to value a used 3rd Gen GS 430 - especially when you can have a new GS350 (at the same price) making almost the same amount of power?
It seems Lexus placed a great amount of emphasis on their short-term goals. They should have waited until the new engines were ready and/or advanced production of the 4.6.
The latest Motor Trend stated that the GS300 did not use the Avalon's motor because it would bump up too close to the 300bhp for the 430. They then went on to state that the GS would get the Avalon's 3.5 in model year 2008 after Lexus introduces the GS460 within the next year with "the 4.6 making more than 315bhp".
The new body seems to have been a stop-gap for the aging and lackluster sales of the 2nd gen. So, based on the fact that the new 4.6 wasn't ready for prime time - we've got three results:
1> a new body style
2> a GS300 that will receive a healthy bump in bhp during 2007 to 280. That'll make all current 3rd gen GS300 and GS430 owners just feel great. If you have a GS3 how will resale be affected? If you have a 430 then you will only be marginally quicker than the 350.
3> A current GS430 (while more modern) is by all reports slower than the 2nd gen.
IMO, Lexus should have ensured the 3rd gen came out as the GS350 and GS460 right from the start. Instead we've got a new body waiting for the engines to play catch up. It will be interesting to see how the resale value holds.
Next, everybody and their mother (for premium sedans) is blowing by 300bhp with their V-8's and the premium V-6's (cars that cost less) are quickly closing in on the 300bhp marker.
I like quality as much as the next person but I don't value it so much that I'm willing to give up this type of power to buy a 3rd Gen GS. IMO, the 2nd GEN GS400/430 is heck of buy on the used car market - especially when you consider they're half the price of a new model.
Come 2008 - how's the market going to value a used 3rd Gen GS 430 - especially when you can have a new GS350 (at the same price) making almost the same amount of power?
It seems Lexus placed a great amount of emphasis on their short-term goals. They should have waited until the new engines were ready and/or advanced production of the 4.6.
I'll step off my box of soap now.
Eric
Excellent point... what would be the reason of getting a 2006 GS430 when you can have a 1998 GS400 for a fraction of the cost?? and if you are looking for the newer bodystyle, why would anyone want to get a 2006 when they can have a 2007 or 2008 with much more power?? Good post..
The GS350 will be a significant improvement in Power/torque over the GS300, but I 'm sure the GS350 will still be significantly slower than the GS430, with much less low end torque, & without the smooth power delivery of the 4.3 litre V8 . Just look at the hp/torque #'s & performance of the new Avalon & you'll know what I mean.
__________________ Andrew
2008 Lexus LS460L Executive Package, Noble Spinel Mica/Alabaster PICTURES HERE
2003 Lexus SC430, Midnight Cherry / Ecru.
1. If you want the most HP, please buy a M5. V-10, 507hp, that should fulfill all needs on public roads with speedlimits mostly around 45mph and maybe 70mph tops, depending on where you live.
2. I don't know where 300hp and 325lbs of torque and 0-60 in under 6 seconds is slow. So what is someone is faster or has more power. If you want it, go there. Lexus is about the total experience, not about some single minded way.
3. MT is DEAD WRONG, I'll BUY A BMW if the GS 460 has 315hp. That is right, I'll buy a BMW. They are reading what WE WRITE. They have no clue.
4. We have beaten this topic to death as Sexy said.
5. Lexus resale is some of the best in the industry, moving up to GS 350 will not hurt 300 sales. Lexus is desirable, period. They just sold 3k GSs in March, clearly, the market doesn't have its head stuck up its butt thinking the most horsepower means you have bigger balls.
6. WHERE THE HELL WHERE SOME OF YOU WHEN THE 2GS was the fastest accelerating auto sedan back in 1998?
7. Lexus has stated, themselves, they will wait to debut new engines to keep the lineup fresh.
8. The current GS 430 is not slower than the 2GS. The 2GS 430 got 0-60 times of 5.9 and higher. It just got a 5.7 run and a 6.0 run. And even so, its not like MOST PEOPLE HERE or ANYWHERE can honestly tell the difference. You need at least a good .5 second difference to see any difference and its still very small, we are talking winning by a hood length maybe. Very small difference.
9. Lexus is about LONG TERM. Short term is thinking GASOLINE engines are the way to go and gas and oil is an infinite resource. Lexus has created hybrids, whereas others are behind or simply buying the technology. If Lexus was short term, they would be in the position some other brands are currently in.
10. If Lexus came out with the 350 and 460 this year, there would be no upgrades throughout the model life, like the 2GS. They DO NOT want this to happen again.
Yes, it would be super cool for Lexus to also, be tops in HP and 0-60 but that war is in all honesty, never-ending and silly. Look st AMG/M/RS now. Its out of control.
Shogun, this is not directed at you at all but we have discussed on numerous occasions the "METHOD BEHIND THE MADNESS".
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipMSPT
I'd rather walk into my parents having sex, instead of looking at those wheels...
As others have said, this has been covered MANY times. Lexus isn't doing anything that MB and BMW haven't done for years now.
As for the 3.0 liter V6, I hope Lexus keeps it. I think it would round out the GS lineup rather nicely and be much like BMW's 5 Series lineup.
GS300 w/ 245hp
GS350 w/ 290-300hp
GS460 w/ 340-350hp (I have a feeling it will be significantly more than "315 HP")
....and of course the GS450h w/ it's unique blend of performance and efficiency which none of the competitors offer.
Either way, I think I'll be perfectly happy w/ my GS430.
. . .Either way, I think I'll be perfectly happy w/ my GS430.
Don't worry about your GS430, I think it'll still be at least 0.5 sec. faster 0-60 than the new GS350, & you can enjoy driving a fresh new model NOW rather than a couple years later.
__________________ Andrew
2008 Lexus LS460L Executive Package, Noble Spinel Mica/Alabaster PICTURES HERE
2003 Lexus SC430, Midnight Cherry / Ecru.
<< WHERE THE HELL WHERE SOME OF YOU WHEN THE 2GS was the fastest accelerating auto sedan back in 1998?>>
<<Shogun, this is not directed at you at all but we have discussed on numerous occasions the "METHOD BEHIND THE MADNESS". >>
1Sick,
I was there in '98 waiting, wanting and with goose bumps. The car, IMO, was revolutionary for Lexus (and we finally we had a maintenance free competitor to BMW).
The HP wars while never ending have recently heated up since the dooldrums of the '70s, '80s and early to mid '90s. You're right, Lexus is about the total experience but, with the performance oriented GS, we're not getting the total experience with a left-over engine.
And again, you're correct the new GS isn't slow but we got spoiled with the leap from Gen 1 to Gen 2. There was no question that Gen 2 was superior in every category: Luxury, Performance and Price. Gen 3 only gets 1 star (albeit a very bright star) outta 3.
A GS350 @ 280bhp and a GS460@ 350bhp - with marginal increases in price would have made given us the 2nd Gen experience all over again.
Remember the first 2nd Gen review against the 540i - the GS lost but it was marginal. I dont think the Gen 3 is going to review very well against the 545i (i-drive included).
1 Sick - no need to mention the "personal comments" (but thank you for doing so) - CL is a great place.
WHERE THE HELL WHERE SOME OF YOU WHEN THE 2GS was the fastest accelerating auto sedan back in 1998?
Couldn't do the GS400, but I bought the GS300 in 98.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogun
And again, you're correct the new GS isn't slow but we got spoiled with the leap from Gen 1 to Gen 2. There was no question that Gen 2 was superior in every category: Luxury, Performance and Price. Gen 3 only gets 1 star (albeit a very bright star) outta 3.
You have to keep in mind, though, performance-wise, that the leap was because Lexus added a V8 to the line up. The 1st Gen only had the i6 GS300. The second gen still had that i6. If the V8 was not added, we'd be in a very similar situation as now. Although engines can be tweaked, unless Lexus decides on a V10 or 12, people are already going to be disappoint since anything else is a step compared to the leap in 98. If you are happy to have the step, the the only solution is patience.
Lexus has a plan. Some of us, as consumers, may not like or agree with the plan but it is what it is. If you are looking for the GS450h or GS460 to get that power bump, just pretend the 3GS release never happened and won't happen for 1-2 years. All the debates and discussions will not change Lexus' schedule. We just need a way to live with it.
<< WHERE THE HELL WHERE SOME OF YOU WHEN THE 2GS was the fastest accelerating auto sedan back in 1998?>>
<<Shogun, this is not directed at you at all but we have discussed on numerous occasions the "METHOD BEHIND THE MADNESS". >>
1Sick,
I was there in '98 waiting, wanting and with goose bumps. The car, IMO, was revolutionary for Lexus (and we finally we had a maintenance free competitor to BMW).
The HP wars while never ending have recently heated up since the dooldrums of the '70s, '80s and early to mid '90s. You're right, Lexus is about the total experience but, with the performance oriented GS, we're not getting the total experience with a left-over engine.
And again, you're correct the new GS isn't slow but we got spoiled with the leap from Gen 1 to Gen 2. There was no question that Gen 2 was superior in every category: Luxury, Performance and Price. Gen 3 only gets 1 star (albeit a very bright star) outta 3.
A GS350 @ 280bhp and a GS460@ 350bhp - with marginal increases in price would have made given us the 2nd Gen experience all over again.
Remember the first 2nd Gen review against the 540i - the GS lost but it was marginal. I dont think the Gen 3 is going to review very well against the 545i (i-drive included).
1 Sick - no need to mention the "personal comments" (but thank you for doing so) - CL is a great place.
Best regards,
Eric
Cool Well I don't think chasing 0-60 really solves anything. Back in 1998, there were hardly ANY cars doing sub 6 second to 60 times. They were all pretty much super cars. But TODAY, the game is much different. Technology has improved, people do like faster cars and marketing dictates, it creats a "halo" even if most the cars are base models.
In 2005 we have these cars under 6 seconds
Neon SRT-4
Acura TL manual
Audi S4 and RS6 and A8 W-12
Benz AMG everything And most 500 cars.
BMW 330s and 545s and M
Infiniti G35s and M45s
Lexus SC/LS/GS and next IS 350
Caddy STS V-8
Mitsu Evo
Suburu Forester, WRX
Volvo S60 R
jag Type Rs
Those are off the top of my head. Back in 1998, most of these cars either didn't exist or could not accomplish the feat. Now we have AMG sedans doing 0-60 in low 4 seconds and some other sedans. So if Lexus say, was a 0-60 in 5 seconds, it could not claim fastest auto sedan and IMO, the point is almost moot.
I do see what your saying, the GS is the "performance" Lexus and it should be the fastest Lexus, so I don't 100% disagree.
Lexus clearly is aware, it is now lacking in the HP "numbers" so the new engines will give the GS a nice bump when sales drop off some in 2 years.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipMSPT
I'd rather walk into my parents having sex, instead of looking at those wheels...
It seems you are all obsessed w/ this car! Good thing! otherwise, I'd be out of a job
The GS debuted w/ the 3GR-FSE (3.0) so that there was still a difference between the V6 and V8.
The GS will (i think the 08 model) get the new V8 (I don't know the displacement, but you all seem to agree on 4.6) and the V6 model will (probably) be bumped to the 2GR-FSE (3.5).
The GS Hybrid will have the 2GR-FSE coupled w/ the hybrid system, but will probably change to the new V8 + hybrid once the new V8 comes out. The idea behind the Hybrid is to make it the flagship of the series (according to the PR). This will shine even more when the next gen LS comes into play (weird scheduling? I guess it's an 07 model for 06 MY release...).
The next LS is supposed to up the anti with a long wheelbase option (A8L, Jaguar... uh... that one... ya...) and the typical V8 w/ SMOOTH (Lexus' goal) power that is still fast enough for most.
--
I'm sure Lexus has thought through this... it would be a marketing nightmare to have a GS 350 (280-290 HP, direct injection, dual VVT-i) go against it's 'big bro' GS 430 (300 HP, multiport injection, class vvt-i)... especially when the 3.5L would have better MPG ratings (direct injection, dual VVT-i torque-monster!) and nearly the same power. The only way that would have worked is to market the 430 as the Luxury based model and the 350 as the sports model (take options away, like nav, mark lev, etc) but that'd also be stupid to do =P
I'm just sitting back and waiting for the next gen LS =]
IMO, Lexus should have ensured the 3rd gen came out as the GS350 and GS460 right from the start. Instead we've got a new body waiting for the engines to play catch up.
I agree with you completely. I could even forgive them for the new V6 if it weren't going to be replaced in a year. But to do that and use a 5+ year old engine in the 430 ... kinda sad really. It's not like Lexus is short on resources.
I know Lexus has said they're going to do more in the performance area, but right now ALL THEIR COMPETITORS do halo high performance models. Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, heck even Cadillac have 400+HP vehicles. The new GS is a very 'nice' car but it's not exciting. We all know the 2nd gen GS430 was LESS exciting than the GS400 because they went for ULEV and went drive by wire and got rid of e-shift. Now the 3rd gen has more sophisticated electronic 'nannies' which are clever and yes, make the car safer, but there's no excitement. And it's not just about HP. It's also about making available more wheels, suspensions and cosmetic upgrades. Heck they can do it for Scion, why not Lexus?
MT quotes GS460 @ 315+bhp
TLN MEMBER # 99
and some other sedans. So if Lexus say, was a 0-60 in 5 seconds, it could not claim fastest auto sedan and IMO, the point is almost moot. 
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