So, I was in Trig. today and got bored and started thinking about the new GS, as I frequently do. I was thinking that if the Avalon and GS300 are going to share the same basic engine but tuned slightly different, and if the 280HP Avalon already gets 22/31MPG...with an extra cog in the tranny and slightly less power, should the GS300 get better MPG figures than that? I know weight and gearing will be different in the GS, but I got to thinking about it none the less.

If so, that'd be awesome considering that fuel efficiency has never been a strong point for the current car.

Any thoughts or comments?

The GS300 should be getting about 27MPG or even a bit higher, since it's about the same size and a bit lower powered than the Toyota Crown Athlete in Japan.

that would be good news if that's the gas mileage. finally it's not like the current gs300 where the gas mileage is just the same as the v8

My guess: 22/32 - which will be the best in class.

And you can't compare it with the Avalon, totally diff engine and FWD layout will give better milage.

My guess: 22/32 - which will be the best in class.

And you can't compare it with the Avalon, totally diff engine and FWD layout will give better milage.

I beleive the engine is indeed larger (3.5 LV6 vs. 3.0L V6), but with the same basic design as the all new GS & not that much difference in overall curb weight. They won't be exactly the same, but I think the point of the comments was they should be close. ;) :cool: :rolleyes:

The GS300 has a 3.0L V6, compared to the Avalon's 3.5L V6. Furthermore, the 3GR-FSE in the GS has Direct Injection, which reportedly ups power AND fuel economy by 10%. Based on a Japanese picture/spec sheet of the 3GR (can be found on IS300.net, news archives), the fuel economy is about 27mpg, if not slightly higher. This is city mpg, btw. It sounds almost too good to be true, since that puts the GS300 with a fuel economy near a Corolla, and higher than a Camry 4 cyl. But since the 3GR has 0.5L less displacement than the Avalon 2GR, as well as having Direct Injection, a city mpg increase of 5mpg over the Avalon seems very likely.

I believe we are in for many surprises to come from Toyota, in the next couple of years. :cool:

The GS300 has a 3.0L V6, compared to the Avalon's 3.5L V6. Furthermore, the 3GR-FSE in the GS has Direct Injection, which reportedly ups power AND fuel economy by 10%. Based on a Japanese picture/spec sheet of the 3GR (can be found on IS300.net, news archives), the fuel economy is about 27mpg, if not slightly higher. This is city mpg, btw. It sounds almost too good to be true, since that puts the GS300 with a fuel economy near a Corolla, and higher than a Camry 4 cyl. But since the 3GR has 0.5L less displacement than the Avalon 2GR, as well as having Direct Injection, a city mpg increase of 5mpg over the Avalon seems very likely.

I believe we are in for many surprises to come from Toyota, in the next couple of years. :cool:

Alot of the info are projected ratings but Toyota's new GR series engines are proving to be definite advances. Not acutal EPA ratings that are given out. We will have to wait and see what the actual real world numbers will be soon.

Avalon's 3.5 engine is extremly closely related to 3.0 in GS, and both have D4 injection. With 15% smaller displacement, and 6 speed AT, you should get comparably better mileage as well. So it should be really good.

Avalon's 3.5 engine is extremly closely related to 3.0 in GS, and both have D4 injection. With 15% smaller displacement, and 6 speed AT, you should get comparably better mileage as well. So it should be really good.

The 2GR-FE has Direct Injection? That's news to me, considering it doesn't have the "S" code whereas the 3GR-FSE has the "S" code to signify DI. Nowhere did I hear or read that the 2GR had DI. I believe the 3GR will be the first Toyota engine to have it. Plus, isn't Toyota going to put DI only on the Lexus cars, in the US at least?

Plus, those fuel mileage numbers are real, not estimates, at least as far as i know, since that spec sheet is apparently of the 3GR in Japan, which has been available for about a year now, on the Crown Athlete (correct me if I'm wrong here).

The 2GR-FE has Direct Injection? That's news to me, considering it doesn't have the "S" code whereas the 3GR-FSE has the "S" code to signify DI. Nowhere did I hear or read that the 2GR had DI. I believe the 3GR will be the first Toyota engine to have it. Plus, isn't Toyota going to put DI only on the Lexus cars, in the US at least?

Plus, those fuel mileage numbers are real, not estimates, at least as far as i know, since that spec sheet is apparently of the 3GR in Japan, which has been available for about a year now, on the Crown Athlete (correct me if I'm wrong here).

No one said you were wrong. Those fuel numbers are estimates because 1) The 3GR-FSE/4GR-FSE engine hasn't been tested on a production model Lexus vehicle for the North American Market yet. Numbers are based off of the Toyota Crown and Mark X which only apply JDM. 2) Japan doesn't use the US system of measurement i.e. US Gallons or Miles. 3) I contributed some of that JDM info from the Crown/Mark X 3GR-FSE/4GR-FSE info to .net.

Direct injection is only available for the 3GR-FSE 3.0L & 4GR-FSE 2.5L for now. If and when the next IS comes with the 2GR 3.5L, it should utilize Direct Injection. You could be a little more nicer in your explanations! ;)

Sorry if I sounded harsh, just was surprised at the statement of the 2GR in the Avalon being D4, since it's not ;) .

I realize that the Japanese system is different: it's in km/L. For the 3GR-FSE (and interestingly enough, the 2JZ-FSE) the fuel economy is rated at 11.4km/L in Japan. Doing a conversion, you get *roughly* 27mpg. I'm willing to venture that the EPA ratings will be in *about* the same range. I understand what you mean by estimates, but the EPA estimates should not be too far off the Japanese quoted fuel economy. So to reword my original statement, I *estimate* the 3GR in the GS300 will have 27mpg city ;) .

On the 2JZ-FSE, fuel economy is superior by about 20% compared to the port injected 2JZ-FE, although the JZ is Inline-6. From what I hear, in a V6, it goes up by 10%, but then again, Toyota could work some magic ... who knows.

The 2GR-FE has Direct Injection? That's news to me, considering it doesn't have the "S" code whereas the 3GR-FSE has the "S" code to signify DI. Nowhere did I hear or read that the 2GR had DI. I believe the 3GR will be the first Toyota engine to have it. Plus, isn't Toyota going to put DI only on the Lexus cars, in the US at least?


Um, actually D4 (which is what Toyota calls Directs Injection system) was featured in 2000 Toyota Avensis (2.0 4cl engine). I am unsure if it was featured before than that. Most larger Toyota engines in Japan now have D4 technology and new Avensis's 2.0l engine also has D4 in Europe. Aditionally, Toyota's 2.4l engine in Europe is the largest 4cl D4 engine sold. Same engine is sold on some JDM models as well (Camry's engine varation with D4).

Toyota will probably but it into every new generation of engines where it pays off to have the D4. They require better/cleaner gas which is why it was never featured in US or some other markets as well. I see no reason for 2GR engine not to have D4 technology, and considering that Avalon is its first application I dont see where would you read that 2GR has D4. They might still have some doubts about it - it is a bit more expensive and then again gas in US is of questionable quality. However if 2GR in Avalon doesnt have the D4, then 3GR in GS should be even more economical than very good numbers for Avalon figures!

I heard its a 20% bump in fuel economy.

I would love to ask, why the GS got the 3.0 and the Avalon and Japanese GS got the 3.5. I am dying to know the reason behind this decision.

The GS is supposed to be the "bad ass" Lexus, not the one with the best gas mileage......

We'll see. Clearly, the 06 GS 300 will be faster than the 05 GS 300. With better gas mileage.

I heard its a 20% bump in fuel economy.

I would love to ask, why the GS got the 3.0 and the Avalon and Japanese GS got the 3.5. I am dying to know the reason behind this decision.

The GS is supposed to be the "bad ass" Lexus, not the one with the best gas mileage......

We'll see. Clearly, the 06 GS 300 will be faster than the 05 GS 300. With better gas mileage.

I'm also puzzled about the decision to delay the new engines for three reasons.

First, I know that Lexus isn't a horsepower company but in the face of competition that is so powerful, they gave us two BRAND NEW cars that have the least amount of advertised horsepower, and some of the competitors are a few years old.

Second, the Avalon has always been the Toyota that could have been a Lexus, and IMO, aside from the badge it's a pretty compelling buy over the GS300. 280HP with an interior that's just as nice and even a bit bigger? I could definitely forego the badge for about 10K less when comparably equipped, and the Avalon Limited gets you a few goodies like reclining rear seats that the GS doesn't have.

Last, I might not be so puzzled if 1997 wasn't one of the best years in Lexus history. They blew away the competition with horsepower and in effect, established rather lofty standards. It just seems that it would have made sense for them to follow up and do the "proper" thing and give the car more power than the competition, just like in 1997 :uh:

The only feasible conclusion that I can come to is that they delayed the 3.5L so that they could put the finishing touches on the rumored 4.6L V8, then introduce them together. Only speculation though.

-Michael-

Um, actually D4 (which is what Toyota calls Directs Injection system) was featured in 2000 Toyota Avensis (2.0 4cl engine). I am unsure if it was featured before than that. Most larger Toyota engines in Japan now have D4 technology and new Avensis's 2.0l engine also has D4 in Europe. Aditionally, Toyota's 2.4l engine in Europe is the largest 4cl D4 engine sold. Same engine is sold on some JDM models as well (Camry's engine varation with D4).

Toyota will probably but it into every new generation of engines where it pays off to have the D4. They require better/cleaner gas which is why it was never featured in US or some other markets as well. I see no reason for 2GR engine not to have D4 technology, and considering that Avalon is its first application I dont see where would you read that 2GR has D4. They might still have some doubts about it - it is a bit more expensive and then again gas in US is of questionable quality. However if 2GR in Avalon doesnt have the D4, then 3GR in GS should be even more economical than very good numbers for Avalon figures!

I'm pretty certain that the 2GR in the Avalon is not D4, because Toyota never mentioned it in any press releases, and the Tundra Solutions spec sheet talks nothing of it. As far as I know, the 2GR in the IS350 *should* have D4, pumping up it's power and economy numbers higher than the Avalon.

Sicklex, if it's actually 20%, that's even more surprising. That's quite a big %.

MPLexus, I agree. The only logical reason as to why they haven't released the GS350 is because it would most likely be too close power-wise to the GS430. Thus, they will probably roll out the GS350 at the same time as the GS460. The GS350 I'm guessing would then replace the GS300.

I'm pretty certain that the 2GR in the Avalon is not D4, because Toyota never mentioned it in any press releases, and the Tundra Solutions spec sheet talks nothing of it. As far as I know, the 2GR in the IS350 *should* have D4, pumping up it's power and economy numbers higher than the Avalon.

Sicklex, if it's actually 20%, that's even more surprising. That's quite a big %.

MPLexus, I agree. The only logical reason as to why they haven't released the GS350 is because it would most likely be too close power-wise to the GS430. Thus, they will probably roll out the GS350 at the same time as the GS460. The GS350 I'm guessing would then replace the GS300.

Yes sir, I have Lexus insiders telling me 20%. That would be big.
Did the GS 400 start this horsepower madness? Quite possibly. And it maybe a battle does not want to finish. Look at the Germans, they have 600hp and 734lbs of torque SL 65s! Exotics now are not the only high HP cars.

Finally, with the GS 450h hybrid use the 3.0 V-6? The RX 400H makes 280hp. The 3.3 liter V-6 makes 230hp. That is a 50hp gain.

If the GS 3.0 makes 240hp, and they add another 50kilowatt battery, that would be another 50hp for 290hp? That is why the GS 430 has to become the GS 460, it has to space the HP. Maybe 320 or so.
So we would have
GS 300 240hp
GS 450h 290hp
GS 460 320hp

I dunno, still sounds off. And why waste the 3.5 V-6? It ALREADY makes 280hp in the Avalon (rumored to go into the Sienna too). A hybrid off that engine is easily 300hp+

sigh...and the IS 350 may hit the 300hp rating WITHOUT any hybrid power.

We'll see!

Yes sir, I have Lexus insiders telling me 20%. That would be big.
Did the GS 400 start this horsepower madness? Quite possibly. And it maybe a battle does not want to finish. Look at the Germans, they have 600hp and 734lbs of torque SL 65s! Exotics now are not the only high HP cars.

Finally, with the GS 450h hybrid use the 3.0 V-6? The RX 400H makes 280hp. The 3.3 liter V-6 makes 230hp. That is a 50hp gain.

If the GS 3.0 makes 240hp, and they add another 50kilowatt battery, that would be another 50hp for 290hp? That is why the GS 430 has to become the GS 460, it has to space the HP. Maybe 320 or so.
So we would have
GS 300 240hp
GS 450h 290hp
GS 460 320hp

I dunno, still sounds off. And why waste the 3.5 V-6? It ALREADY makes 280hp in the Avalon (rumored to go into the Sienna too). A hybrid off that engine is easily 300hp+

sigh...and the IS 350 may hit the 300hp rating WITHOUT any hybrid power.

We'll see!

True, those SL 65's sure do put out gobs of power, although in the SL65's case, it puts out so much power, the stock tires can't handle it all, and there's excessive wheelspin (in other words, the SL 65 should be even faster than it already is). But I think the SL65 is going over the top with power. You're never going to use all that power, unless you're on the track. I think if you have a car that reaches 0 - 60 in and around 4.5 to 5s, that's *fast enough* for all driving situations (on the track, being an exception). I see so many AMG versions coming from MB now, I'm starting to think that MB is just throwing HP and TQ at their cars in desperation, because they're not sure how else to compete.

From what I heard, the RX400H makes 270HP (230HP + 40HP electric) and 300+ lb-ft TQ; after all, the electric motors add more TQ than HP. The GS450H I think will pair the 3.5L V6 with the Synergy Drive. I'm thinking the power of the GS450H and the GS460, as the names being so close suggest ;) , will be quite similar. I think the GS450H might be branded differently, or maybe be parallel to the GS460, but a different kind of Lexus. We've yet to find out if the GS450H is going to be the "GT" version. The GS460 will come out, and also make way for the GS350, so that power between the 2 will be clearly different. Also, the RX400H, in terms of tuning, was tuned slightly more for performance, with fuel economy benefits still being there. On the other hand, current rumours say that the GS450H will be tuned for "all out performance". It's hard to say how Toyota will position the GS460, and the GS450H. Another thing to consider is that the GS450H will appear before the GS460. Too much info is unknown to really say anything at this point.

I'm pretty certain that the 2GR in the Avalon is not D4, because Toyota never mentioned it in any press releases, and the Tundra Solutions spec sheet talks nothing of it. As far as I know, the 2GR in the IS350 *should* have D4, pumping up it's power and economy numbers higher than the Avalon.


The new Avalon 2GR-FSE is Direct Injection and Dual VVT-i. 280hp 260 ft/lb torque w/5spd ECT-i w/sequential shift. ;)