Please tell me what I did in the Supra/335i thread that's the same as what he did here.

First, I'm no BMW fanatic. You definitely should realize that by now. I'm the first to tell you everything that's bad about my car and BMW in general.

Second, I added several factual bits of information to your thread which you left out... all of them conveniently in favor of the 335i. Fact is you wanted to make a point in that thread so instead of presenting the facts in a balanced manner, you left out anything that hurt the point you were wanting to make. I added them. I don't see where this guy added any facts I left out.

Not at all the same thing.

 

I find it easier to just skip this thread.

Most of the people that actually buy the 2 cars in question certainly will.

 

The target market of the two will buy them regardless of the reviews. Maybe a quick check of Consumer Reports and that's about it.

 

True, for the most part they'll operate on their opinion of a test drive and maybe some word of mouth... but that doesn't change the fact that some of us enthusiasts are still interested to see whether or not GM appears to have pulled it off successfully. I like to read about and discuss cars that I'd likely never consider buying.

With that said, though, I WOULD consider a LaCrosse. Heck I have an 09 Aura right now which isn't a stretch at all from the LaCrosse.

 

I agree with both of you on these cars. I think Buick has something to prove to us enthusiasts about making a decent car, even if we are not necessarily the target audiance. Good cars tend to have universal appeal anyway.

My flip remark occurred after reading the stuff in the middle of the thread earlier. In fact I had a ES350 loaner for over a week early this year, I drove it under a variety of conditions including city, suburb, mountain roads, freeway, etc. It was a good car. And I think the new Buick is the most promising Buick car in years.

 

The 3.0L Lacrosse must be awful to drive. And it offers no fuel economy advantage.

 

Excuse me if I come across as a bit harsh, but Lexus deserved this. Every bit of it.

They had the opportunity to create a true, worthy successor to the ES 330 with the ES 350. What did Lexus do? They dropped the ball , big time.

The ES 350 is what you get when a company relies on image and branding rather than quality and refinement to sell a product.

Oh sure, the ES 350 looks decent enough on the exterior, and somewhat sportier than the ES 330 it replaced. Even so, as someone who drives a 330, and picked it specifically OVER the 350 when directly comparing the two, I think certain elements of the 330's exterior are actually better than the 350. The more aggressive exterior on the 350 also produces the side effect of poor rear-view visibility, though to be fair, many cars are starting to become this way.

Now, the interior? There's no comparison between the two. The 350 is a sea of nasty plastics straight from the Camry part bin, with a few wood trim pieces thrown on as almost an afterthought. It's an insult considering what you pay (there's cars with better interiors that cost $10k less), and it's also an insult to the Lexus badge. It's not deserving of it.

The 330 has (mostly) nice, soft touch surfaces and tastefully done wood, and plenty of it. The ride is also smoother, and is, as mmarshall has voiced before--much more suiting to the overall "role" of the car.

Then look at the release of the ES 350, in which models were plagued with wind noise issues and rattles, as well as decreased reliability from the outgoing model, and you have what on paper should be an utter failure.

I think the ES 350 sold like it did because of its updated exterior, which appealed to many. It also had no real competitors. The products from Buick and Lincoln were still lame at the time, and cars like the TL, CTS, A4, etc. were designed with a different role in mind. And finally, the ES 350 has that prestigious 'L' badge, which people associate with quality, as they should.

Unfortunately, that's been slipping quite a bit lately. Lexus really needs to stop this cost-cutting nonsense. Lexus is about the relentless pursuit of perfection. Not about the relentless pursuit of cutting corners.

In essence, the ES 350 sold (and still does) not because it's a great car. It sells because of ignorance, snobbery, and reputation for dealer service.

It's time to face the facts. Lexus' second most important model has been outdone now by three brands. If someone were to mention these brands to you five years ago--and the thought of them making a product that could compete with and outdo the ES--you'd have laughed.

But times have changed, and now Lincoln, Buick, and yes, even Hyundai have products better than the ES. Yes, BETTER than the ES. For the same price or less. Think about that for a minute.

The next-gen ES better be a home run. If the "refreshed" ES pictures are any indication though, it looks like those of us who like and root for Lexus (they're making it harder lately) will be in for more disappointment.

PS: If you own an ES 350, sorry. The above is simply my opinion, and should be taken as such.

 

Excellent post, from an actual ES owner, not just someone who likes to bash Lexus on the internet.

I share your view completely, and I hope someone at Lexus realizes that they are on a huge downfall.

 

Well, as for the Buick, I think the car it will hurt most is the Lincoln MKS.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding the point of it, too. If its mileage is the same as the 3.6, and its weight and cost to produce are nearly the same... it really makes no sense.

I did hear somebody else say that in GM's own internal testing the 3.0 got about 8-10% better fuel economy... but that somehow that didn't translate when the EPA did their tests.

Yeah I really think GM would be better off at this point cutting the 3.0 and going all 3.6. The only advantage it serves right now is to help them sell more of the up level CXS... but is that really worth having a mid and lower tier/trim model that's less competitive with little to no upside?

 

Maybe they are trying to get rid of the overstock of 3.0? Thats kind of what happened when the 3GS300 rolled out - Toyota needed to get rid of the overstock of 3.0's before rolling the 3.5 out.

 

I think the ES350 is sales champion for these reasons. First the Lexus Brand name is great (considered Tier I Luxury Brand) + great ownership experience. Second it's bigger than the competition (ie 3-series, C-class, A4 etc, ES350 doesn't look compact like the 3 cars I mention). 3rd people who are joining the Entry Luxury Market wants the name recognition (not Tier II luxury like Infiniti or Acura) that is also cost effective and reliable in the long run. I think these 3 factors are huge in ES350 success. If they were to get rid of the ES350, the benefactor would not be IS250/350, instead I think would be GS350. I believe ES350 success contributes to GS's (sales) failure. They are similar in size, comparable in HP and technology. GS is the only car that gets so much competition within it's own brand.

 

Couldn't have said it better. My friend recently bought an 05 ES330 over an ES350 for the same reason. Looks aside (which is subjective anyways), the ES350 main advantage is the engine/transmission. ES330 may not handle as nice, it's sure is quieter on the road and so is the engine. Interior-wise, there is no contest.

But one thing the ES350 does well is power delivery. The 02-06 ES are known to have hesitations and abrupt shifts most of the time. It just can't figure out what gear it wants to be in.

 

the other day I was flipping through a magazine and saw a shot of the Buick and I thought it was a spy shot of a new Lexus ES . It looks great. They are finally developing cars with nice lines. The cars dont look so damn cheap anymore.

 

My dad actually was looking back in 07 at a new car. It came down to three cars

2006 (brand new) ES330 not sold
2007 Toyota Avalon
2007 ES 350

Early owners of the ES350 were reporting transmission flare, wind noise and some rattles. The ES330 was just too old of a model. Avalon won on price and cheap ownerships costs.

We really research all three. My dad really, really wanted the ES...but the early reports from owners prevented this. Looking back at the design, the design was not all that much better when we compared the ES330 to the ES350, It seemed very feminine and the centre stack was a bit odd.