CRJ57

Through some research I've noticed that there have been at least 14 cases noted with the NHTSA regarding this concern.
6 have been explained away as a result of the all weather floor mat not being secured to the retention hooks. The remaining 8 are unconfirmed.

Let's set the record straight -

Toyota has built the drive by wire system with multiple redundancy and a full fail safe system. Although not impossible, the odds of winning the lottery are twice as good as "unintended acceleration" actually occurring.

1. Accelerator Position Sensor -
The system is such that the accelerator position sensor has two (2) signals that must correspond to each BEFORE it will actuate the throttle motor. If they don't correlate the ECM will enter into a "Limp" mode where no more than 20% throttle angle can be achieved. (Remember the vehicle idles at 16% throttle angle.)
2. Throttle Position Sensor -
In addition to the accelerator position the throttle also uses a Hall IC with, you guessed it, two (2) signals. As with the accelerator these must correspond to each other AND with the accelerator position signals. If any one of these four (4) signals are outside of the programmed parameter the system goes into the "Limp" mode.
3. Throttle Motor -
If the accelerator position sensors are in correlation the throttle motor will open the throttle based on the correlation between the accelerator and throttle positions - if there is any discrepancy the throttle will only give a maximum of 20%.

In order for an "unintended acceleration" event to occur all four (4) signals would have to correlate equally, in addition the throttle motor would have to some how receive a throttle open command from the ECM, all simultaneously.

Opinion:
The Lexus vehicles, and this applies the entire current model line up, is arguably the best built vehicles in the world. The fail safes built into the system makes them idiot proof, or you would think so. It verges on the realm of impossibility.
It would be nice if the owner's of the remaining 8 cases would take responsibility for their mistake.

Look forward to anyone's comments.

larrynimmo

for a first time comment, you sure know a lot...which division of toyota do you work for?

jerfitz

You refer to a "throttle motor," could it be possible that somehow electrical power or an acceptable signal-set could get to this motor bypassing these 2 and/or 4 signal restrictions???

An example of this was with the 737 that went down in Pittsburgh about four years ago. In this case the circuit in the chip actually grew "within the chip" after its manufacture and shorted across to another circuit which caused the rudder to turn to the left when the pilot pushed the control to the right and vice versa.

It took four years to discover this growth or bleeding across circuits. These circuits are extremely close together inside circuit chips. In my simple explanation under a microscope it looked like corrosion or rust where the thin circuit expanded and grew, like rust on steel expands, touching another circuit.

Only after another crash and finally the same failure at high altitude (no crash here) did the investigators solve this problem that can cause a crash if it happens when landing.

If I were in chage at Lexus whenever someone said this occurred I would order immediate replacement of ALL electronics involved with the throttle controls so Lexus could look at the inside of the chips. That is an inexpensive way to find out if this could be the cause.

One death from something like this could cost Lexus millions in damages and even more in reduced vehicle sales which may be a greater cost than the replacement of the throttle body electronics.

OTOH, the public likes and respects a company that is proactive as opposed to denial.

BTW, my wife and I now have a concern for this problem with our 2007 ES350 because Lexus seems to be in denial!

CRJ57

Voltage "bleed" across a circuit is possible - (Not familiar with the 737 issue) However, Lexus is required to abide by CAFE and Federal regulations that mandate any type of malfunction will set a diagnostic trouble code (DTC). At the moment the ECM detects the "bleed" the system enters into fail safe where even if the throttle motor opened because of strey voltage, the fuel injection pulse width is reduced and there by limits the acceleration.

If the vehicle did accelerate there would be evidence left behind with a DTC, because there would be a brake pedal input, accelerator position and throttle position would not equate with the throttle motor movement.

CRJ57

Just a mechanic for the last 21 years. I've had several customers ask for "expert" information in regards to this - not an attorney, so I won't make up something that sounds technical.

jerfitz

Good explantion on your part...thanks!

My concern is that I now have reliablity concerns about our ES350 because of the discussions regarding transmission flare especially, engine noise, rattles, and the results in the following poll.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236162

This poll leads me to believe that 2/3s of the ES350 owners have had one of these problems plus there is no way to mention if you have had two or more of these problems.

Besides that I found out after the purchase that my wife cannot use the NAV system touch screen input while I am driving. She must use voice commands that are NOT understood by the NAV systen 3/4s if the time. Three and four voice repeats of a command are normal before it is understood.

Now I see there are two discussions regarding a possible SERIOUS SAFETY problem: Dangerous Uncommanded Acceleration and Unintended Acceleration plus 14 complaints to the NHTSA.

When I look at the Consumers Report's ratings and the highly biased questions in this survey (see below) I wonder whether a great number (not all by any means) of Lexus owners are so mesmerized by owning a Lexus they overlook defects (that's what pollsters call 'em) when they answer survey questions.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=282526

I trust you also noticed the biased title, "Are you still happy with your ES350?"

I can only hope our ES350 will be okay.

meadoel

I'll be the first to tell you my ES350 is a mess. But I suspect that most ES350 drivers are very happy and aren't taking the time to find this chat just to tell us how happy they are. (Who ever calls Ma-Bell to say "Thanks for dial tone"?)

If you've got one on order... look forward to a great value and enjoy it.

Craig B

There was an article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch last week about this problem. Someone had the accelerator stick. The dealer Plaza Lexus is saying they had two sets of floor mats in the car. One carpet mat and the other an all weather rubber mat. Plaza is saying one of the mats caused the car to speed up and the girl had to ram the car in park causing $10K in damage to the car. Plaza doesn't want to pay for the repairs.

Craig

Craig B

I found where the article was, but they want $2.95 for the full text of the story. I wish I had cut it out and scanned it...

Craig

Michael D. Sorkin
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
St. Louis Post-Dispatch (MO) June 8, 2007

Section: Metro Edition: Third Edition
Page C2 Word count: 721

ID#: 1001053906
Lexus, famous for its safety features, boasts that its top luxury sedan (the $61,000 LS 460) can park itself in parallel almost automatically. Donna Bernard wants to know why a company that can do all that didn't pay more attention to its floor mats.

She says her floor mat caused her Lexus to accelerate at ever higher speeds as the driver desperately tried to stop it.

Bernard isn't alone. Government safety officials have opened an investigation into the floor

Download the full text of this story ($2.95).
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Pheonix

The floor mat???
Haven't those used an eye-hook anchor since the 1989 ES 250? Sorry, never payed attention to the 350, and the few camry v6's i've been in so far.




CRJ57 we had a one thread discussion about it (same page), but if you want to see how big a pain in the *** the drive-by-wire is. Go look at the work you have to do to remove it when doing an ES/RX/Camry/Sienna/Highlander v6 to MR2 swap. It's rediculous. I think it took brad bedell weeks of troubleshooting the drive-by-wire in his gen3 mr2 2gr-fe swap.

static

Lexus sent a recall notice to those that bought the all weather floor mats, I got one of them. It instructed you to remove the original floor mat before installing the all weather floor mats and to not install the all weather version on top of the original on the driver side.

I had done exactly that (installed all of them on top of the originals).

terryes

Could you please post the RECALL notice your received.

Two weeks ago I received a letter from Lexus advising me of the problem. No recall notice.

Included in the letter were instructions for the proper installation of floor mats and a cute little orange precaution label. It also made reference to the ES-350 manul for installion procedures.

So, if the mats were recalled, it could be of benefit to many on this forum.

static

Sounds like the same thing I received, I'll check when I get home.

Craig B

That's exactly what the article said, not to place the all weather mats on top of the carpeted mats. I have an LS 460 and have the all weather mats on top of the carpeted mats. The dealer did this, not me. I've done this in all my other Lexus vehicles without any problems. I hope it's only the ES 350, not the LS 460 as well...

Craig

Craig B

Here is the full article...

Craig



Owner says this car's floor mats nearly killed her daughter
By Michael D. Sorkin
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
Friday, Jun. 08 2007

Lexus, famous for its safety features, boasts that its top luxury sedan (the
$61,000 LS 460) can park itself in parallel almost automatically.

Donna Bernard wants to know why a company that can do all that didn't pay more
attention to its floor mats.

She says her floor mat caused her Lexus to accelerate at ever higher speeds as
the driver desperately tried to stop it.

Bernard isn't alone. Government safety officials have opened an investigation
into the floor mats on the Lexus ES 350. Some 20 owners have filed complaints
that their 350s suddenly accelerated.

Bernard manages her husband Harry's podiatry practice in Centralia. Here's her
story:

On May 18, the couple's daughter, Allyson, and five girlfriends set out for the
Galleria mall in Richmond Heights to celebrate Allyson's 17th birthday.

Donna Bernard insisted that they take her Lexus for the 60-mile drive. "It'll
be safer for you," Bernard told them.

She had researched her car purchase for four months and test driven nine cars.
The tungsten silver Lexus she selected came with seven air bags and a sterling
reputation for safety.

The Bernards don't allow their daughter to drive in the big city yet, so her
friend Danielle was behind the wheel. About 7 miles out of Centralia,
approaching the small town of Hoffman, Danielle noticed the cruise control
light come on even though the cruise was off. She tried unsuccessfully to turn
it off.

She tapped the brakes but the car accelerated. The more she braked, the more it
accelerated, Bernard recounted.

Danielle tried to shift the car into neutral but the car was still accelerating.

She tried to turn off the car but it wouldn't stop. Danielle stood on the brake
with both feet. The car kept going.

"I am sure you can imagine how terrified the kids were at this point — can you
imagine traveling in a car for over 5 miles, going over 90 miles per hour and
no brakes?" Bernard wrote in her government safety complaint.

By now the girls were desperate. Bailee, the front seat passenger, threw the
car into park just as they approached a four-way stop.

The car shuddered, made loud noises, smoked and skidded about 150 feet before
stopping.

When she heard what happened, Bernard called the auto dealership; the salesman
asked how many floor mats were on the driver's side.

Two, Bernard replied; the standard carpeted mat and the optional rubber,
all-weather mat.

The salesman said Lexus had just notified the dealership of a problem with its
floor mats.

"I immediately went to look at the floorboard and the mat was jammed under the
brake, over the accelerator," Bernard wrote. "Every time Danielle attempted to
brake, she was accelerating without her knowledge."

On April 5, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration notified
Toyota's Lexus division that the safety agency was receiving complaints of
"unwanted acceleration" from owners of 2007 model Lexus ES 350s.

"In each incident the pedal was apparently trapped by the floor mat after the
driver pressed the accelerator pedal," the complaint says. "A field
investigation" by government investigators "confirmed that the all-weather mat
can trap the accelerator pedal in such a position."

Lexus spokesman Greg Thome says he can't comment on the complaints while the
government and Lexus investigate.

In April and May, Thome said, Lexus sent letters to owners of the ES 350
warning that placing the optional all-weather mat on top of the standard carpet
mat may cause "slipping forward and interfering with the movement of the
accelerator pedal."

The car is designed for just one floor mat, Lexus wrote, adding "we apologize
for any inconvenience this may have caused you."

John Capps, president and CEO of Plaza Motor Co. in Creve Coeur, says he has
interceded vigorously with Lexus on behalf of the Bernards. They have purchased
11 cars from the dealership.

Capps says the Lexus sustained about $10,000 in damage, including its
transmission.

Bernard says she no longer trusts the car to drive. She can't sell it without
disclosing the problem, she says, and who would buy it? She's asking Lexus to
exchange it.

Meanwhile, the $40,800 car sits on the dealer's lot.

msorkin@post-dispatch.com | 314-340-8347